Valid Opinions of Men and Women (crimes, county, abuse, state)
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I don't want to turn this into a discussion about rape if we can avoid it. I just had a four day nightmare of that. I'd prefer just to keep this simpler to "can a person have a valid opinion on X, without having been X."
Did you ever walk around for a few days wondering how you would act differently in your daily life if you were a woman?
I think if you are able to sincerely try to use your imagination as a tool of empathy, you might get close. Authors who write from opposite-gender viewpoints have to do some of the above to write convincingly as that narrator. But unless you've walked in their shoes (which are usually less practical than yours or considered unstylish, and some really can't be worn while running away from threats) you can't be sure you've nailed it 100%.
But let's start with the daily life. The difference starts when you go to the bathroom in the morning, when you sit to pee and also may have to deal with menstrual-related things. Then you dress in much different clothing than you're used to wearing (if nothing else, the bra sure is different). You may have trouble reaching the shelves you normally could reach because statistically, you're shorter. And that's just the first 10 minutes of your day.
Later, you will discover that men want to date you and they can be pretty relentless
No. If both sexes could do that, we wouldn't have so many marriage counselors and divorce lawyers.
Not necessarily, just because some might be capable of it, doesn't mean all are. However, considering the biological differences between the two, I suspect in this case it is impossible - since the chemical levels in men's brains differ from that in women's... So, scientifically impossible.
Unsurprisingly, that came up. You can probably start piecing together what some of this conversation was about. There were a lot of personal details involved which is why this isn't just a straight copy and paste. And it has the word count of a small novel.
I was pretty clear about what I meant, and you're right in that I see "living in fear" as coloring every decision someone performs throughout their day--and she did the same thing. She questioned how I hold my keys, where I walk, what I wear, etc, and she stated that men never have to worry about things like this because they aren't women.
She completely ignored the part about how are statistically more likely to be the victim of a violent crime than a woman, Honestly, I was using it to rub in her face that men actually have to worry about that stuff too.
But I'm a man, what do I possibly have to worry about? What could I possibly know?
This conversation turned to rape pretty quickly, and she repeatedly stated that I am a rape-enabler because I iterated that people have a responsibility to protect themselves and avoid bad situations and bad decisions. She took this as mean it was a girls fault for getting raped--which it isn't. You don't choose rape, but you do choose the people you hang out with. You do choose where you go at night. As a person, she has to be aware that bad people exist, that rapists exist, and that as a woman, she's more likely to be a victim of a sex crime. It isn't someone's fault that they are the victim of a crime, but they do have to actualize their responsibility of lowering their own risks of these crimes. I told her she cannot absolve her responsibility has a human to make good decisions. "You're no better than a rapist."
Gee thanks.
See where this is going?
I don't want to turn this into a discussion about rape if we can avoid it. I just had a four day nightmare of that. I'd prefer just to keep this simpler to "can a person have a valid opinion on X, without having been X."
The validity of your opinion on X is going to depend on what you base your opinion. If it's just based on the assertion that men are also the victims of violent crime, then that's not enough of a basis for a valid opinion of women and their fear of violent crime.
Your friend's girlfriend is telling you that. Your assertion that women have a responsibility to protect themselves and avoid bad situations does suggest that you place some fault with a woman for getting raped. Women are all too aware that bad people exist, that rapists exist, and that as a woman, she's more likely to be a victim of a sex crime. Women are too aware that even though it's not because of the clothes they wear, or the people they hang out with, or the businesses they patronize, that they will be criticized for just those things. Because those things mitigate the responsibility of rapists. While "you're no better than a rapist," goes too far, because unless you are a rapist or murderer or some sadistic torturer, you are better than a rapist, the fact that you assign responsibility to a woman for being assaulted (which you clearly do, that's what you mean when you say, "she cannot absolve her responsibility as a human to make good decisions") puts you really down at the bottom in terms of your attitude toward women. When a cheerleader goes out with the quarterback, and he won't take no for an answer, she's not the one who made the bad decision. He did, when he decided not to take no for an answer. When the baker at the local coffee shop goes out with the lawyer who stops in each morning for a latte and pastry, and he forces himself into her home after their date, forces her to have sex with him, she's not the one who made the bad decision. There's no crystal ball that says this guy is a rapist, and this guy is a nice guy. Most men seem like nice guys. Most men are nice guys. Some nice guys are also rapists. When they think that women owe them. When they've had a little too much to drink. When they get angry about something at work. When they need to vent a little. When other guys egg them on. I'm a woman, and I don't live in fear, but I do know that the nicest guys sometimes aren't so nice. And that some of the worst men are the best at hiding who they really are. I'm a woman, and I know that rapists exist, and stalkers exist, and that men who are abusive exist. I don't want to live my life on guard against all the bad things that could happen. But when you assert that women have a responsibility for the things that happen to them, you are saying that women should live their lives on guard against all the bad things that could happen. That's when you fail to have a valid opinion of women. No one should have to live their life on guard against all the bad things that could happen. No one.
Last edited by DC at the Ridge; 09-24-2012 at 08:37 AM..
The validity of your opinion on X is going to depend on what you base your opinion. If it's just based on the assertion that men are also the victims of violent crime, then that's not enough of a basis for a valid opinion of women and their fear of violent crime.
Your friend's girlfriend is telling you that. Your assertion that women have a responsibility to protect themselves and avoid bad situations does suggest that you place some fault with a woman for getting raped. Women are all too aware that bad people exist, that rapists exist, and that as a woman, she's more likely to be a victim of a sex crime. Women are too aware that even though it's not because of the clothes they wear, or the people they hang out with, or the businesses they patronize, that they will be criticized for just those things. Because those things mitigate the responsibility of rapists. While "you're no better than a rapist," goes too far, because unless you are a rapist or murderer or some sadistic torturer, you are better than a rapist, the fact that you assign responsibility to a woman for being assaulted (which you clearly do, that's what you mean when you say, "she cannot absolve her responsibility as a human to make good decisions") puts you really down at the bottom in terms of your attitude toward women. When a cheerleader goes out with the quarterback, and he won't take no for an answer, she's not the one who made the bad decision. He did, when he decided not to take no for an answer. When the baker at the local coffee shop goes out with the lawyer who stops in each morning for a latte and pastry, and he forces himself into her home after their date, forces her to have sex with him, she's not the one who made the bad decision. There's no crystal ball that says this guy is a rapist, and this guy is a nice guy. Most men seem like nice guys. Most men are nice guys. Some nice guys are also rapists. When they think that women owe them. When they've had a little too much to drink. When they get angry about something at work. When they need to vent a little. When other guys egg them on. I'm a woman, and I don't live in fear, but I do know that the nicest guys sometimes aren't so nice. And that some of the worst men are the best at hiding who they really are. I'm a woman, and I know that rapists exist, and stalkers exist, and that men who are abusive exist. I don't want live my life on guard against all the bad things that could happen. But when you assert that women have a responsibility for the things that happen to them, you are saying that women should live their lives on guard against all the bad things that could happen. That's when you fail to have a valid opinion of women. No one should have to live their life on guard against all the bad things that could happen. No one.
Interesting topic. Friends are struggling with this exact same issue, not understanding the perspective/experiences of the other gender.
I'll throw this out there for c-d's opinions...
Mixed-gender group hanging out. A guy turns to the woman on his right and insults another guy in the group by saying to her, "He's worse than a woman," and rolls his eyes. The woman was upset about the insult which she thought puts down women as well as the guy he was intending to insult. The guy tells her to lighten up, she doesn't have a sense of humor.
Is the guy a jerk? Or is the woman overly sensitive? What say you, c-d?
The guy is a jerk. However I wouldn't get upset with him. I'd probably just say out loud:
"You know, I knew a guy who used to say things like that. Turns out he had a really really tiny weiner." then look pointedly down at his lap.
Then I'd wink at the guy he was trying to insult and say "The girls tell me that's not a problem you have".
She's overly sensitive, but that's to be expected with women sometimes. His timing was just wrong. Last week she would have thought it was funny. He should know better.
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Originally Posted by claudhopper
Women will always be the "special victims unit"
I've found many men are 'overly sensitive' about a lot of things and have quite fragile egos.
Did you ever walk around for a few days wondering how you would act differently in your daily life if you were a woman?
I think if you are able to sincerely try to use your imagination as a tool of empathy, you might get close. Authors who write from opposite-gender viewpoints have to do some of the above to write convincingly as that narrator. But unless you've walked in their shoes (which are usually less practical than yours or considered unstylish, and some really can't be worn while running away from threats) you can't be sure you've nailed it 100%.
But let's start with the daily life. The difference starts when you go to the bathroom in the morning, when you sit to pee and also may have to deal with menstrual-related things. Then you dress in much different clothing than you're used to wearing (if nothing else, the bra sure is different). You may have trouble reaching the shelves you normally could reach because statistically, you're shorter. And that's just the first 10 minutes of your day.
Later, you will discover that men want to date you and they can be pretty relentless
That seems like a pretty weak argument.
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Originally Posted by MIKEETC
And experience.
[which you could not possibly have]
So a valid opinion on anything requires experience of that thing. What about the example I had above about the sky-diver? Whose opinion is "more valid," the guy who has never been skydiving, but has studied the physics, makes the parachutes, or the guy who tandem jumped once as part of a bachelor party?
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Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge
The validity of your opinion on X is going to depend on what you base your opinion. If it's just based on the assertion that men are also the victims of violent crime, then that's not enough of a basis for a valid opinion of women and their fear of violent crime.
If the basis is that women fear for their lives because of violent crime, it certainly is a counter-point. Like I said though, the conversation go to rape pretty quickly (as yours did here too).
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Your friend's girlfriend is telling you that. Your assertion that women have a responsibility to protect themselves and avoid bad situations does suggest that you place some fault with a woman for getting raped.
Never. I don't blame people from getting their homes broken into either, but they still have a responsibility to lock their doors. I don't blame people for being mugged, but they should avoid dark alleys as a matter of healthy choice. You can't make a decision for something that isn't a decision by its nature--like being a victim of a crime.
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Women are all too aware that bad people exist, that rapists exist, and that as a woman, she's more likely to be a victim of a sex crime. Women are too aware that even though it's not because of the clothes they wear, or the people they hang out with, or the businesses they patronize, that they will be criticized for just those things.
Yes, and as this girl was all too ready to point out, there shouldn't be these things--but realistically, there are.
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Because those things mitigate the responsibility of rapists. While "you're no better than a rapist," goes too far, because unless you are a rapist or murderer or some sadistic torturer, you are better than a rapist, the fact that you assign responsibility to a woman for being assaulted (which you clearly do, that's what you mean when you say, "she cannot absolve her responsibility as a human to make good decisions") puts you really down at the bottom in terms of your attitude toward women.
If being prepared for an attacker, or avoiding risk puts me at the bottom in terms of attitude toward women, it puts me at the bottom of attitude towards everyone.
I'm not saying it is anyone's responsibility to not be criminalized, but there are decisions people can make to reduce their risk of being victims, and in the event they become a victim, take action to stop it. Realistically, that's not always possible either. But my sympathy won't sit with someone who walks alone in a dark alley at night and gets mugged versus someone who was waiting outside a grocery store one afternoon and gets mugged.
I can understand how you think this is me placing blame on someone, but it isn't. The mugger is responsible for mugging the person, and any other day of the week, someone might have been able to walk down that alley without a problem, but dark places, alone, at night, are risky situations, and they're best to avoided. Is that not true?
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When a cheerleader goes out with the quarterback, and he won't take no for an answer, she's not the one who made the bad decision. He did, when he decided not to take no for an answer. When the baker at the local coffee shop goes out with the lawyer who stops in each morning for a latte and pastry, and he forces himself into her home after their date, forces her to have sex with him, she's not the one who made the bad decision. There's no crystal ball that says this guy is a rapist, and this guy is a nice guy. Most men seem like nice guys. Most men are nice guys. Some nice guys are also rapists.
I think most nice guys here might disagree that nice guys are rapists. That's a mutually exclusive term. At best, it's a facade.
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When they think that women owe them. When they've had a little too much to drink. When they get angry about something at work. When they need to vent a little. When other guys egg them on. I'm a woman, and I don't live in fear, but I do know that the nicest guys sometimes aren't so nice.
There is a lot more to rape here than drinking a little too much. That mindset is rather dangerous socially, because it would foster paralyzing fear. There is a fantastic amount of research on the motives of rape--having one too many beers doesn't really factor into them.
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And that some of the worst men are the best at hiding who they really are. I'm a woman, and I know that rapists exist, and stalkers exist, and that men who are abusive exist. I don't want to live my life on guard against all the bad things that could happen.
You should always have a plan for bad things that could happen. The power could go out at your residence, and undoubtedly you have flashlights, perhaps candles. In Michigan, tornadoes do occur, albeit rarely, but we know where to go in the event one of one. I live in a low crime area, but if my door looks kicked in, I know not to go into the house. You don't need to be constantly on guard, holding a gun to every new person you meet to make sure they aren't a criminal, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't have a plan in the event they try to attack you.
If your plan fails, it doesn't mean you're at fault for the crime happening, but if you don't have a plan, you are at fault for not having a plan.
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But when you assert that women have a responsibility for the things that happen to them, you are saying that women should live their lives on guard against all the bad things that could happen. That's when you fail to have a valid opinion of women. No one should have to live their life on guard against all the bad things that could happen. No one.
I agree. Nobody should have to, but reality is a much more different world than what our ideals are. Having a plan, being prepared, making smart choices--those are things you can control which can reduce ones risk of being a victim of anything. Yet this girl wants to tell me it makes me a rapist or a rape-enabler?
I see a difference between what I'm saying and blaming a victim. I'm not in anyway saying the girl was raped because she walked down the dark alley, but rather, affirming that dark alleys are dangerous places, and people--regardless of sex here--should not walk down them.
So a valid opinion on anything requires experience of that thing. What about the example I had above about the sky-diver? Whose opinion is "more valid," the guy who has never been skydiving, but has studied the physics, makes the parachutes, or the guy who tandem jumped once as part of a bachelor party?
If the basis is that women fear for their lives because of violent crime, it certainly is a counter-point. Like I said though, the conversation go to rape pretty quickly (as yours did here too).
Never. I don't blame people from getting their homes broken into either, but they still have a responsibility to lock their doors. I don't blame people for being mugged, but they should avoid dark alleys as a matter of healthy choice. You can't make a decision for something that isn't a decision by its nature--like being a victim of a crime.
Yes, and as this girl was all too ready to point out, there shouldn't be these things--but realistically, there are.
If being prepared for an attacker, or avoiding risk puts me at the bottom in terms of attitude toward women, it puts me at the bottom of attitude towards everyone.
I'm not saying it is anyone's responsibility to not be criminalized, but there are decisions people can make to reduce their risk of being victims, and in the event they become a victim, take action to stop it. Realistically, that's not always possible either. But my sympathy won't sit with someone who walks alone in a dark alley at night and gets mugged versus someone who was waiting outside a grocery store one afternoon and gets mugged.
I can understand how you think this is me placing blame on someone, but it isn't. The mugger is responsible for mugging the person, and any other day of the week, someone might have been able to walk down that alley without a problem, but dark places, alone, at night, are risky situations, and they're best to avoided. Is that not true?
I think most nice guys here might disagree that nice guys are rapists. That's a mutually exclusive term. At best, it's a facade.
There is a lot more to rape here than drinking a little too much. That mindset is rather dangerous socially, because it would foster paralyzing fear. There is a fantastic amount of research on the motives of rape--having one too many beers doesn't really factor into them.
You should always have a plan for bad things that could happen. The power could go out at your residence, and undoubtedly you have flashlights, perhaps candles. In Michigan, tornadoes do occur, albeit rarely, but we know where to go in the event one of one. I live in a low crime area, but if my door looks kicked in, I know not to go into the house. You don't need to be constantly on guard, holding a gun to every new person you meet to make sure they aren't a criminal, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't have a plan in the event they try to attack you.
If your plan fails, it doesn't mean you're at fault for the crime happening, but if you don't have a plan, you are at fault for not having a plan.
I agree. Nobody should have to, but reality is a much more different world than what our ideals are. Having a plan, being prepared, making smart choices--those are things you can control which can reduce ones risk of being a victim of anything. Yet this girl wants to tell me it makes me a rapist or a rape-enabler?
I see a difference between what I'm saying and blaming a victim. I'm not in anyway saying the girl was raped because she walked down the dark alley, but rather, affirming that dark alleys are dangerous places, and people--regardless of sex here--should not walk down them.
How exactly are you prepared for someone who is bigger, stronger, and possibly armed, breaking into your home while you are asleep, and entering your bedroom, climbing on top of you, and forcing themselves on you?
Do you think that when that happens to a woman that her doors were unlocked? YOUR version of reality, that women can be more vigilant, is actually different from the real world. It's not the dark alley that women have the most to fear from. It's the boyfriend who loses his temper and punches her, then begs for forgiveness because it will never happen again. It's the husband who says he's thrilled about the unplanned pregnancy, but in reality feels trapped. It's the ex who when she left said, "If I can't have you, no one can." It's the uncle who takes just a little too many liberties. Most women aren't assaulted by strangers. Most women aren't raped by strangers. Most women aren't killed by strangers. It's not strangers that are the biggest threat, it's the men we think we know and trust, who turn out to be familiar strangers, that are the biggest threat. And when you consider that fact, then that makes the opinion that you've been sharing with your friend's girlfriend, much less valid.
How exactly are you prepared for someone who is bigger, stronger, and possibly armed, breaking into your home while you are asleep, and entering your bedroom, climbing on top of you, and forcing themselves on you?
It's not for everyone, but some people sleep with a revolver under their pillow. Not every crime is preventable or avoidable, but are you advocating people shouldn't take responsibility for protecting themselves?
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Do you think that when that happens to a woman that her doors were unlocked? YOUR version of reality, that women can be more vigilant, is actually different from the real world. It's not the dark alley that women have the most to fear from. It's the boyfriend who loses his temper and punches her, then begs for forgiveness because it will never happen again.
How many times does it take for that woman to finally realize the boyfriend doesn't change? I won't blame someone for being abused, I will blame someone for staying in an abusive relationship. That's part of your responsibility to watch out for yourself.
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It's the husband who says he's thrilled about the unplanned pregnancy, but in reality feels trapped.
How is that abusive?
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It's the ex who when she left said, "If I can't have you, no one can." It's the uncle who takes just a little too many liberties. Most women aren't assaulted by strangers. Most women aren't raped by strangers. Most women aren't killed by strangers. It's not strangers that are the biggest threat, it's the men we think we know and trust, who turn out to be familiar strangers, that are the biggest threat. And when you consider that fact, then that makes the opinion that you've been sharing with your friend's girlfriend, much less valid.
STOP.
There is a difference between people you know, and people you trust. This is actually where my friends entire argument turned into her just starting to call me a misogynist. I don't dispute that 3\4 of sex-crimes were committed by someone the victim knows. That is not the same as someone the victim trusts.
I want to know those statistics. My friend failed to provide any data that was more granular than "someone they know." Someone you know is the baker you buy your donuts from every week. Would you trust your baker though? You know hundreds of people. How many do you trust?
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