Valid Opinions of Men and Women (suspect, Missouri, free speech, violent crime)
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I've been in a rather long, vicious and protracted argument with my best-friends girl-friend. At this point in the discussion, I don't feel safe in the same room with her, especially if there are sharp objects around. She's repeatedly called me a misogynist because I, as a man, think I have a valid opinion about what it's like to be a woman. I caller her a misandrist as a facetious response, and she mocked me and said "lol, Men's Equal Rights.!!!1!"
Considering we've been having this discussion for like, four straight days, I'm not going to bother laying out anything that happened, but I am curious about this.
Can a (wo)man hold a valid opinion about what it is like being a (wo)man?
Sure, you can have an opinion and it can be a valid one - but for you only.
Your opinion is not everyone else's truth - keep telling yourself that and you'll be fine.
She's overly sensitive, but that's to be expected with women sometimes. His timing was just wrong. Last week she would have thought it was funny. He should know better.
The jerk was setting her up and expected her answer. It was a deliberate insult. IMHO she should have kicked the chair out from under him and apologized with something like "Ups, clumsy me."
What's your opinion? Is the guy a jerk in that instance? Or is the woman overly sensitive?
We know the guy is insulting all women. The fact that he attempted to shame the woman for being offended at an insult is a sign of jerkhood. The woman may or may not be overly sensitive. Reacting to an insult when one has been given is not a sign of oversensitivity, but does not preclude it.
And speaking of "valid" opinions, how does such an opinion get validated? Sounds like a geniune woman is refusing to validate the OP's opinion. Maybe he should talk to other women and see if most of the others react the same way. If they do, I would gently suggest that he start listening and stop talking.
That's actually a good question, what is a valid opinion. The interpretation here is open to discussion, but I think we can reasonably agree that a coherent and thoughtful viewpoint would constitute a valid opinion.
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Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge
I think men can have insights into women, and women can have insights into men. A lot depends on the relationships an individual has with the opposite sex growing up, and a lot depends on an individual's capacity for empathy. As a woman, I will say that men constantly surprise me. I grew up with three brothers, and I was always aware that men see the world differently from women. I thought that was a strength, that having relationships with other people was about getting glimpses of different perspectives. I love those different perspectives. But I don't have access to the complete panorama of a separate individual's perspective. Glimpses are by their nature fragmentary. So I think that whenever we try to see things from another's point of view, regardless if that person is the opposite or the same gender, we need to understand that we're not seeing the whole picture. The more intimate you are with this other person, the more complete the picture you might see, but it will never be whole. Seeing the glimpses is the nature of empathy, understanding that they are only glimpses is the basis for compassion.
Do we require complete and utter knowledge to hold valid opinions, or can we form them with objective knowledge and experience?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitch
I disagree. There are situations were one cannot have a relevant or valid opinion unless they have had previous experience or knowledge. For example, if someone has never served in the military then their opinion on military life is irrelevant and invalid. If someone has never skydived, then their opinion on what the experience is like is is irrelevant and invalid. The same is also true for men and women. Men cannot have a relevant or valid opinion on what it is like to be a woman, any more than women can have a relevant or valid opinion on what it is like to be a man. There is no frame of reference or experience where one can draw on in order to form a relevant or valid opinion.
But what would be a more coherent opinion on skydiving? The guy who has never gone, but has studied the physics, designed flight suits, and runs the skydiving shop, or the guy who jumped tandem once at a bachelor party?
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Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim
If the OP had a truly valid opinion on what's it's like to be a woman, he probably wouldn't be arguing with one for four days straight.
That's the thing--with the exception of the time I called the girl an idiot for making bad choices--never did I actually say anything like "women believe this" or "all women should do this." She just took things out of context and ran a marathon with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Western Pilgram
I don't agree. One can ask skydivers or military veterans what it's like and derive valid opinions on that basis. A valid opinion, by the way, is not the same as a comprehensive understanding of every facet of the experience. But it is enough to act upon. You need a valid opinion on military life, for example, before you decide to enlist in the military.
This may be the only time in this history of my experience here Western that I agree with you on anything.
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Originally Posted by InformedConsent
Interesting topic. Friends are struggling with this exact same issue, not understanding the perspective/experiences of the other gender.
I'll throw this out there for c-d's opinions...
Mixed-gender group hanging out. A guy turns to the woman on his right and insults another guy in the group by saying to her, "He's worse than a woman," and rolls his eyes. The woman was upset about the insult which she thought puts down women as well as the guy he was intending to insult. The guy tells her to lighten up, she doesn't have a sense of humor.
Is the guy a jerk? Or is the woman overly sensitive? What say you, c-d?
You be jackin' my ****, yo!
These are highly subjective to groups of friends that I've found, but for the most part, insulting with stereotypes isn't something you do with acquaintances because they're easily taken out of context.
When people use stereotypes as comedic insults, it isn't an insult per se to the entire group represented by the stereotype, as much as the absurdity of the stereotype itself. The joke is more about the stereotype than the group represented by it. (The stereotype of women versus actually being a women).
I can only say as far as my group crap flies all the time and no one is hurt by it because it's meaningless banter and comedy. Nobody is actually being insulted by it.
But, if your friend was insulting someone else with it, that perhaps it's being seen as a slant against the group rather than the stereotype itself.
Interesting topic. Friends are struggling with this exact same issue, not understanding the perspective/experiences of the other gender.
I'll throw this out there for c-d's opinions...
Mixed-gender group hanging out. A guy turns to the woman on his right and insults another guy in the group by saying to her, "He's worse than a woman," and rolls his eyes. The woman was upset about the insult which she thought puts down women as well as the guy he was intending to insult. The guy tells her to lighten up, she doesn't have a sense of humor.
Is the guy a jerk? Or is the woman overly sensitive? What say you, c-d?
I've been in a rather long, vicious and protracted argument with my best-friends girl-friend. At this point in the discussion, I don't feel safe in the same room with her, especially if there are sharp objects around. She's repeatedly called me a misogynist because I, as a man, think I have a valid opinion about what it's like to be a woman. I caller her a misandrist as a facetious response, and she mocked me and said "lol, Men's Equal Rights.!!!1!"
Considering we've been having this discussion for like, four straight days, I'm not going to bother laying out anything that happened, but I am curious about this.
Can a (wo)man hold a valid opinion about what it is like being a (wo)man?
A man with an opinion on what it is like being a woman (and vice versa)? Yes.
A man with a valid opinion on what it is like being a woman (and vice versa)? No.
[a man (or woman) could read every piece of literature on Earth and think he/she will know what is like being a member of the opposite sex - but you'll never really know]
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