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Another argument you might hear from those who defend abortion (of the embryo, or fetus, or even partial-birth abortions) is that it isn't a person until the umbilical cord is cut. It's just part of the woman's body, a "parasitic growth" I've been told. Neverminding any arguments to counter that, this also must mean that when a man abandons a pregnant woman even as she is giving birth, he is not abandoning a woman and child... just a woman.
Having said that, I would like to discuss (with anyone truly willing) the idea of a man owing child support to a woman he leaves DURING or CLOSE TO the moment a woman gives birth. I do think it's true that when a woman gets this far along on the understanding that the man will be there for her and the baby, and then the man reneges, he should have to pay a temporary form of child support. As the fetus develops, it's at least more and more questionable whether abortion is morally just. And certainly, many women who are generally "pro-choice" would agree that partial-birth abortions are questionable (outside of those deemed medically necessary).
But for how long?
Asked my girlfriend about this and she said "Yeah, a couple months" I was kinda shocked! I was thinking more like a year. What do you all think? Please keep in mind that I'm asking this for the purpose of ensuring a woman and her baby can get by with the sudden change, not to punish the man.
Another argument you might hear from those who defend abortion (of the embryo, or fetus, or even partial-birth abortions) is that it isn't a person until the umbilical cord is cut. It's just part of the woman's body, a "parasitic growth" I've been told. Neverminding any arguments to counter that, this also must mean that when a man abandons a pregnant woman even as she is giving birth, he is not abandoning a woman and child... just a woman.
Having said that, I would like to discuss (with anyone truly willing) the idea of a man owing child support to a woman he leaves DURING or CLOSE TO the moment a woman gives birth. I do think it's true that when a woman gets this far along on the understanding that the man will be there for her and the baby, and then the man reneges, he should have to pay a temporary form of child support. As the fetus develops, it's at least more and more questionable whether abortion is morally just. And certainly, many women who are generally "pro-choice" would agree that partial-birth abortions are questionable.
Asked my girlfriend about this and she said "Yeah, a couple months" I was kinda shocked! I was thinking more like a year. What do you all think? Please keep in mind that I'm asking this for the purpose of ensuring a woman and her baby can get by with the sudden change, not to punish the man.
If you have and her have decided to have a child together, and sometime during he leaves then he should be forced to pay child support the whole 18 years. It's not about punishment it's about owning up to his responsibility.
Having said that, I would like to discuss (with anyone truly willing) the idea of a man owing child support to a woman he leaves DURING or CLOSE TO the moment a woman gives birth. I do think it's true that when a woman gets this far along on the understanding that the man will be there for her and the baby, and then the man reneges, he should have to pay a temporary form of child support.
If you start muddying the waters like this, you start losing the equality argument. Why not stick to male opt-out during the legal abortion trimesters? Women can't opt out during or close to birth, unless you count unilateral adoption and no questions asked safe havens.
After the abortion period, both parents should be responsible for the child until age 18, with the presumption of 50/50 custody unless a parent relinquishes that right and pays child support.
If a female doesn't want the responsibility/financial stress that goes along with parenthood, she can get an abortion and never look back. Even if the male wants to keep the baby, the female has the power to get an abortion.
So why do the males get no say? If a female can just walk away from the responsibility if she doesn't want a baby, a male should be able to do the same thing.
If the female wants to keep the baby but the male doesn't, the male gets stuck paying child support.
In both examples, one parent wants to keep the baby. So why does the male get stuck paying for a baby he doesn't want?
Of course the male can't get an abortion. But I don't think the male should need to pay child support for a baby he doesn't want.
Sure, you might be thinking "The male helped create the baby. If the female wants to keep it, the male should pay"
But it takes two to tango. Both parents played an equal role in creating the baby. So if the male can't force the female to pay, why should the female be able to force the male to pay?
By the way, I am pro-choice. I support abortion and I don't see anything wrong with a female getting an abortion if she doesn't want to pay for a baby. But if a male doesn't want to pay for a baby, he shouldn't need to either.
i get what you're saying. ignoring the "abortion" debate that others will surely jump on, the way I look at it is this: the male contribution to "making" the baby is more or less a single night's actions. the man doesn't have to do anything else, other than share some fluids. so if the male doesn't want a baby - birth control is his main tool. it's not his body to decide what to do with if birth control is not used, or if birth control fails. i'm sure if a woman wants a baby and a man doesn't, there would be legal courses the two could take so that the male doesn't have to pay to support the child. but i think that would be wrong on the male's part, personally.
If you have and her have decided to have a child together, and sometime during he leaves then he should be forced to pay child support the whole 18 years. It's not about punishment it's about owning up to his responsibility.
An argument also given by "pro-lifers" to make abortion illegal. Just substitute the "his" with a "her". I know that you're aware of this as a contradiction, because the OP itself identified it as such.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123
If you start muddying the waters like this, you start losing the equality argument. Why not stick to male opt-out during the legal abortion trimesters? Women can't opt out during or close to birth, unless you count unilateral adoption and no questions asked safe havens.
After the abortion period, both parents should be responsible for the child until age 18, with the presumption of 50/50 custody unless a parent relinquishes that right and pays child support.
What IS "the abortion period"? If it's illegal across the board after a certain point in pregnancy, I completely agree with you. Didn't know if maybe that varied by state, or what.
I'm not just referring to what is, though, but how people tend to think it should be. Some believe it's an object or just part of the woman's body until the cord is cut, and that abortion should be illegal and available until that moment (again, not just for medical reasons). Probably not most, but some. After all, "It isn't a person until it's born" is often used as an argument to justify abortion of the fetus.
i get what you're saying. ignoring the "abortion" debate that others will surely jump on, the way I look at it is this: the male contribution to "making" the baby is more or less a single night's actions. the man doesn't have to do anything else, other than share some fluids. so if the male doesn't want a baby - birth control is his main tool. it's not his body to decide what to do with if birth control is not used, or if birth control fails. i'm sure if a woman wants a baby and a man doesn't, there would be legal courses the two could take so that the male doesn't have to pay to support the child. but i think that would be wrong on the male's part, personally.
Why would it be wrong? If the woman has the baby knowing the man does not want it, why is it wrong to expect her to accept sole responsibility for making an informed decision?
What IS "the abortion period"? If it's illegal across the board after a certain point in pregnancy, I completely agree with you. Didn't know if maybe that varied by state, or what.
The "abortion period" is the period of time a woman is able to obtain an abortion in the state where she resides. The man should have an equal amount of time (in the same state) to legally opt-out of parenthood, through a court filing that unilaterally relinquishes his rights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
I'm not just referring to what is, though, but how people tend to think it should be. Some believe it's an object or just part of the woman's body until the cord is cut, and that abortion should be illegal and available until that moment (again, not just for medical reasons). Probably not most, but some. After all, "It isn't a person until it's born" is often used as an argument to justify abortion of the fetus.
I'm not here to debate whether a fetus is a person or not. I am only here to argue for equalizing the current legal system between the genders. Even if some people don't believe "it is a person until it's born", late term abortions aren't legal, so I don't see a need to debate it unless we were in a pro-life/pro-choice thread. If I'm missing how your point relates to equalizing the laws, please let me know.
Then men should keep their sperm to themselves.
Got a problem with that, might want to study biology 101.
She's not welcoming the sperm, hopefully she's welcoming the sex.
Without sperm a woman cannot get pregnant.
The man supplies the sperm.
If he doesn't want the potentiality of being a parent, he needs to ensure that no sperm get to an egg.
Yes, it's basic biology.
Without birth control pills, or spermacide, or an IUD, or any other form of birth control she has indeed welcomed the sperm. If she doesn't want to be a parent she needs to ensure that no sperm get to the egg.
The "abortion period" is the period of time a woman is able to obtain an abortion in the state where she resides. The man should have an equal amount of time (in the same state) to legally opt-out of parenthood, through a court filing that unilaterally relinquishes his rights.
I'm not here to debate whether a fetus is a person or not. I am only here to argue for equalizing the current legal system between the genders. Even if some people don't believe "it is a person until it's born", late term abortions aren't legal, so I don't see a need to debate it unless we were in a pro-life/pro-choice thread. If I'm missing how your point relates to equalizing the laws, please let me know.
Is it a FACT that late-term abortions are illegal across the board?
Not sure if you're MISSING my point, or you're just uninterested. I'm only saying that people who consider a fetus merely part of the woman's body cannot accuse a man who disappears before the baby's born of abandoning a child, only of abandoning a woman. That's it. I'm questioning their reasoning, because these are the sort of opinions that influence our legal system to begin with.
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