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Abortion is legal, is it not? And even if it isn't available to all women, most of us are agreeing that it SHOULD be legal and available. Yet, if a man opts out of parenthood, he's charged a massive fine, payable in a mandatory 18-year installment plan.
Naturally, it's wrong for anyone to force a woman to get an abortion. But the system doesn't advocate that; it advocates the contradiction pointed out in the OP. That's why everyone keeps bringing it up, because that's the subject.
No, but as has been said over and over, the woman doesn't have to go through any phase of pregnancy if she chooses not to.
Just because something is legal doesn't always mean it's an option. People are subjected to social pressures all the time and many women are forced into aborting or forced into having a baby by their families and communities.
Just because something is legal doesn't always mean it's an option. People are subjected to social pressures all the time and many women are forced into aborting or forced into having a baby by their families and communities.
Unless someone is forcing them into a clinic in gunpoint, any woman who aborts is still choosing to go through with it, legally. The argument is for the man to have a legal option to make his own choice to opt-out.
i don't "Forget" that. it's the whole freaking point. A kid needs a mother and a father. If the woman wants to have the baby ALONE, (which is morally wrong, in my opinion) then she needs to be responsible for providing for the child financially, ALONE. If she wants to be the "adult" who makes the decision about "her body", then she needs to deal with the consequences of her decision.
If the father opts out, it's not the mother's choice to parent alone. She was forced into parenting alone by the father's selfish choice.
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If the woman gets the choice of whether to have the baby, the man should get the choice about whether he wants to support the baby.
That’s my point. Women don’t always get the choice. Just cause it’s legal doesn’t mean the choice is always there. There are other factors to consider like the social, cultural, and religious expectations of the woman’s family and community.
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what's difficult or not, is irrelevant. what's relevant is that she gets to make the decision. if it's too difficult to raise the child alone, and the potential father won't help, then she should have an abortion.
Sure it is. If paying up for child support wasn’t difficult, it wouldn’t be an issue to begin with.
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i know how difficult it is to raise children, which is exactly why women need to be careful with who they sleep with, and is exactly why abortions are helpful.
And so should men. Men and women both contribute to the birth of a child. It’s on both of them. No one party is more responsible than the other—they are equally responsible.
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It's hilarious to me that after 100+ pages, y'all still have a completely irrational argument.
That is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it, but your opinion is not the majority.
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Originally Posted by Lucidkitty
You are getting pissy over this 'mythical' man who doesn't want a child but is forced to pay child support. While yes i'm sure it has happened, it's the far exception rather than the rule. Given that only about 55 percent of mothers get court ordered child support, and only about 22 percent get it regularly should tell you something. It tells you that a good portion of women don't even waste their time with men who don't want anything to do with their child. And that even in the cases where they do get it from the course, only a small percentage make regular payments. The fact is that a man who doesn't want to pay, isn't going to pay.
When your argument makes no sense, you can always make up some pretend statistics, before you revert back to personal attacks.
If a female doesn't want the responsibility/financial stress that goes along with parenthood, she can get an abortion and never look back. Even if the male wants to keep the baby, the female has the power to get an abortion.
So why do the males get no say? If a female can just walk away from the responsibility if she doesn't want a baby, a male should be able to do the same thing.
If the female wants to keep the baby but the male doesn't, the male gets stuck paying child support.
In both examples, one parent wants to keep the baby. So why does the male get stuck paying for a baby he doesn't want?
Of course the male can't get an abortion. But I don't think the male should need to pay child support for a baby he doesn't want.
Sure, you might be thinking "The male helped create the baby. If the female wants to keep it, the male should pay"
But it takes two to tango. Both parents played an equal role in creating the baby. So if the male can't force the female to pay, why should the female be able to force the male to pay?
By the way, I am pro-choice. I support abortion and I don't see anything wrong with a female getting an abortion if she doesn't want to pay for a baby. But if a male doesn't want to pay for a baby, he shouldn't need to either.
Males do have a say in the baby createing situation, they either cover themselves and use other types of protective gels, creams, foams or whatever is out there OR............they KEEP IT PUT AWAY.
If the father opts out, it's not the mother's choice to parent alone. She was forced into parenting alone by the father's selfish choice.
she wasn't forced into parenting alone; she could get an abortion.
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That’s my point. Women don’t always get the choice. Just cause it’s legal doesn’t mean the choice is always there.
Yes, it does, quite literally.
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There are other factors to consider like the social, cultural, and religious expectations of the woman’s family and community.
A woman's family and community can't prevent her from having an abortion.
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And so should men. Men and women both contribute to the birth of a child. It’s on both of them. No one party is more responsible than the other—they are equally responsible.
You have take one of two positions:
a. Women alone have the right to decide whether to have an abortion, or not
or
b. Men and women are equally responsible for the child.
You can't have both, and still maintain a rational argument.
Males do have a say in the baby createing situation, they either cover themselves and use other types of protective gels, creams, foams or whatever is out there OR............they KEEP IT PUT AWAY.
Tada, no babies created and the male had HIS SAY.
Good morning,
Do you make the same birth control or "keep it put away" argument towards women?
If you're pro-life, your argument is consistent since it hold both parents accountable post-conception.
If you're pro-choice, your argument isn't intellectually consistent since it allows one parent to opt-out post-conception but not the other.
We legislate differences in biology all the time to equalize gender differences, as we should. See VAWA, gender discrimination laws, rape laws, etc.
We don't tell women "tough luck, it's biology if the man is stronger or has a social advantage".
Precisely. "Tough luck", "oh well" and this...
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Originally Posted by Lucidkitty
So you can get over the fact women have the right to decide whether to keep the child or not.
...have no place in a debate over what's fair and just.
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Originally Posted by Lucidkitty
You are getting pissy over this 'mythical' man who doesn't want a child but is forced to pay child support. While yes i'm sure it has happened, it's the far exception rather than the rule. Given that only about 55 percent of mothers get court ordered child support, and only about 22 percent get it regularly should tell you something. It tells you that a good portion of women don't even waste their time with men who don't want anything to do with their child. And that even in the cases where they do get it from the course, only a small percentage make regular payments. The fact is that a man who doesn't want to pay, isn't going to pay.
It should be that much easier for you to agree with us that he shouldn't have to, then. Since, according to you, that's what happening most of the time anyway.
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Originally Posted by nimchimpsky
Just because something is legal doesn't always mean it's an option. People are subjected to social pressures all the time and many women are forced into aborting or forced into having a baby by their families and communities.
Again, the system isn't advocating forcing either an abortion or carrying the baby to full-term. The social pressures are not something we approve of, but the existence of it doesn't mean the woman still doesn't have an option. This points even more to the true meaning of responsibility.
Males do have a say in the baby createing situation, they either cover themselves and use other types of protective gels, creams, foams or whatever is out there OR............they KEEP IT PUT AWAY.
Tada, no babies created and the male had HIS SAY.
Your Tada moment has been repeated dozens of time, even though it avoids the real issues of apportining rights after pregnancy.
Woman has the legal right to to abort, continue the pregnancy, tell or not tell a man she's pregnant, break the news after abortion or birth. Sure, the male should know all that before going in. Doesn't change the fact that he's screwed.
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