School held prayer services before tests (racist, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, claims)
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I am not a Catholic and I've bowed my head during one of their prayers. I've lived in Muslim countries before and have no problem with stopping what I was doing to be cognizant towards those who felt the conviction of what they do. Will it really hurt anyone to show some courtesy & tolerance towards others? This wasn't a matter of policy that was being acted out - it was prayer (hopefully that everyone will pass the test). I've lived all over and have learned which hills are worth fighting (and dying) on and which aren't.
So you think that if Muslim prayer was forced on kids by a school administrator, there would be total acceptance? Is that what you're saying?
So....in your opinion, would the SCOTUS have ruled against those states that had official state religions, as being unconstitutional?
Yes. And in direct violation of the first amendment (unless you assume that the bill of rights only apply at federal level, while states are free to override and choose).
Not every law has to be spelt out in black and white. Please see Engel v. Vitale and Abington School District v. Schempp for the Supreme Court decision on authority-led prayer in school.
It's all in how the Supreme Court (circa 1962) interpreted the law.
It's only unconstitutional ("illegal") for an authority-figure in a local school to lead prayer. If it's the students doing it of their own accord, it's fine.
At my high school, there was a group of Christian students that, each day, would gather at the flagpole to pray. Because no teacher endorsed, participated, and/or interfered, it still continues to this day.
Do you believe that the SCOTUS would have ruled against the constitutionality of most of the original states having official state religions?
So....in your opinion, would the SCOTUS have ruled against those states that had official state religions, as being unconstitutional?
The Supreme Court of 1800? No. As I said, they interpreted the Bill of Rights as only binding the federal government. A state government could do what they wanted regardless of the federal Bill of Rights.
However, the Fourteenth Amendment changed that. The Due Process Clause has been held in myriad cases to require state and local governments to obey most of the provisions of the Bill of Rights. The Supreme Court has been incorporating selectively, as each individual right comes up. For example, McDonald v. Chicago just last year formally incorporated the Second Amendment to the states. Before that, a state could theoretically ban all firearms and not violate the Constitution.
So to directly answer your question: would the SCOTUS have ruled against those states? Not in 1820, but almost certainly in 1920. Today? No question.
What I don't get is that somehow you believe that the Founding Father's original intent was a sterile, religion-free society.
What I don't get is why you think I wrote any such thing. I never did. The laws governing prayer in school do not promote or accomplish any such thing.
So this argument is both a straw man as well as overblown hyperbole.
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That is clearly not the intent. The 14th Ammendment says absolutely nothing about this.
You do understand that case decisions ARE LAW, right? And the 14th does say it. It just doesn't say it in words you seem to understand - or more likely - words you don't want to understand.
You do understand that you cannot just pick up a copy of the Constitution and understand how it works in every context, right?
You do know we operate under a common law system with stare decisis and judicial review of legislative and executive acts, right?
You do understand how the separation of powers works, right?
You are 100% absolutely wrong in every assertion you have made on this thread so far. And this is not the first time you have made these assertions.
It is clear that they wanted a religious-free government, however.
Which is why 9 of the original states had official state religions?
Yes--they wanted a religion-free FEDERAL government...not a state government.
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Originally Posted by Strel
What I don't get is why you think I wrote any such thing. I never did. The laws governing prayer in school do not promote or accomplish any such thing.
So this argument is both a straw man as well as overblown hyperbole.
You do understand that case decisions ARE LAW, right? And the 14th does say it. It just doesn't say it in words you seem to understand - or more likely - words you don't want to understand.
You do understand that you cannot just pick up a copy of the Constitution and understand how it works in every context, right?
You do know we operate under a common law system with stare decisis and judicial review of legislative and executive acts, right?
You do understand how the separation of powers works, right?
You are 100% absolutely wrong in every assertion you have made on this thread so far. And this is not the first time you have made these assertions.
I realize they are binding law. I also realize there are activist judges that ignore actual law and write their own law through decisions.
There's nothing wrong with Muslim students requesting space/time for prayer. Just as there's nothing wrong with Christian students requesting space/time for prayer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist
What I don't get is that somehow you believe that the Founding Father's original intent was a sterile, religion-free society.
Except that it doesn't matter what religion the founding fathers were or were not.
The topic is about a person in a position of authority leading prayer in a school setting in the year 2011 - which is nearly 50 years after the Supreme Court made a ruling that such a thing is unconstitutional.
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