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Wrong the Metro and MTA are in HUGE debt (just like Amtrak)... they continually receive SUBSIDIES to actually survive every year... apparently they don't charge the riders enough to survive... I have yet to see one mass transit system that doesn't require an infusion of cash to survive... isn't it so great?
What wrong about that? I've never considered a public transportation system something that needs to be profitable, I think it's a financial burden on the tax payers that provides a benefit to the city.
I don't think most cities make a profit on the roads they build and maintain either.
I have read a lot about Europe, and have compared it thoroughly to the United States. It started because I have always been interested in happiness, what causes it, and where people are most happy. Generally when you look at international happiness rankings, the happiest countries seem to be primarily of European origin. So I spent a very long time trying to find out what exactly made European countries so happy.
So what is it that makes someone happy? And how does Europe contrast with America in these respects?
Let me first list the things that people try to associate with Europe and why it is seen by many as being more happy than America. The key word being socialism.
From very leniant welfare policies, to free healthcare, we know that socialism is far more expansive in Europe than in America. They have free educations, longer life-expectancies, and all sorts of other government assistance.
So is this what makes Europe more happy than America? It would be simple if socialism was actually a determinant for happiness, but it isn't.
Most of Europe is far less happy than America, and another nation of wealth and socialism(Japan), is also far less happy than America.
So let us go over the list of happiest OECD(basically 1st world countries) to maybe see a pattern.
10. Belgium = Population 10.7 million
9. Norway = 4.7 million
8. New Zealand = 4.2 million
7. Switzerland = 7.6 million
6. Canada = 33 million
5. Ireland = 4.4 million
4. Sweden = 9.2 million
3. Netherlands = 16.4 million
2. Finland = 5.3 million
1. Denmark = 5.5 million
The large socialist countries of Europe(France, England, Germany) tend to be much less happy than Americans. If you take France as an example and just contrast it with England. France is more wealthy than England, they have much more beautiful land, they work fewer hours a week because of their expansive union membership. France is rated the best healthcare system in the world by the world health organization. Yet, France is generally much much less happy than England. England involves itself in wars across the world with the United States, yet France is generally a pacifist nation. Why would France possibly be less happy than England?
Well lets also look at Japan, which is one of the wealthiest socialist countries outside of Europe, but it rates extremely low on the happiness scale. But it is a country of 130 million people.
So lets go back to our list, it should be pretty easy to spot the simple trend when it comes to happiness. All of these countries tend to have very small populations. And this is just the OECD list. There are many other happiness lists, and every single happiest country list tends to have small countries as the happiest, and large countries being much further down the list.
If you really want to think of something interesting, of all countries with a population of more than 33 million(Canada), the United States is the happiest country on earth.
Also, statistics have shown that women are less happy today than they were in 1972, after all the womens rights movements and massive expansion of the welfare state. Why?
Because socialism has absolutely nothing to do with happiness.
Happiness comes from an interconnected society that shares common values, so generally the people tend to agree on most things. It is from a society that sees each other as part of a larger family, and the socialist policies aren't as much seen as confiscation of property from one group to another, but rather is seen as a charity to benefit the people of what amounts to your extended family. Your nation, your people.
As a country grows in population, it tends to disconnect, and socialism is seen less and less as helping your extended family, but more as a redistribution of wealth from the people who will work, to the people who won't. And these welfare recipients are not seen as equals, they are seen a faceless group of people that aren't like you. The more people in a society, the more ideas there will be of how things should be run, and the more divisive a country becomes.
If you truly wanted to be like Europe, you would give much more power to the states and not the federal government(or even support secession). If you truly wanted to be more like Europe, you would block the immigration of peoples that are culturally so radically different that their presence will destroy the ties that bind us as one people. If you don't understand this, then I think you should again look at Europe. Do you know what one of the largest issues in Europe is right now? Immigration. The socialist states are collapsing because of immigration. And most European countries that refuse to close immigration entirely are wanting to heavily slow it, why? Because they want to force the people already in their countries to assimilate.
As someone stated before, you cannot have socialism and open-borders.
Last edited by Redshadowz; 06-24-2010 at 10:46 AM..
I definitely think there are some things that we can learn from Europe to make our country better. I'm not a liberal either, and many of my political leanings fall on the libertarian side of things. Areas like pubic transit/rail systems, urban planning, work/life balance, and efficiency of resources are much better done in Europe. Other than poor countries in Eastern Europe, it is noticeable that Europe is far ahead of us in these areas. Their cities are more vibrant, it's easier to get around without a car, there is less wasteful development, and people seem to know how to enjoy their lives better. Now there are certainly a lot of things the U.S. does better than Europe, but to say that we should not look to other places for ideas is very provincial.
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie
Wrong the Metro and MTA are in HUGE debt (just like Amtrak)... they continually receive SUBSIDIES to actually survive every year... apparently they don't charge the riders enough to survive... I have yet to see one mass transit system that doesn't require an infusion of cash to survive... isn't it so great? So efficient but not even profitable.. you think the fundings will go away with a flat level of subsidy? Apparently they are starting to ask the Federal Government for help.... that's what you want? Endless bailouts with taxpayer dollars? If any business can't survive without continual government bailouts, why are we not fixing the problem? Is it the unions again?
Editorial: A Federal Bailout to Put the MTA Back on Track (http://www.cityhallnews.com/newyork/article-400-editorial-a-federal-bailout-to-put-the-mta-back-on-track.html - broken link)
I have always found this argument to be ridiculous. The same logic you apply to rail transit could be made against roadway travel as well. Do you actually think that you being able to drive your car around where ever you want is not subsidized by the government? The deck in this country has been stacked in favor of the development of roadways with little money going into rail networks. If you want to make an issue about justifying transit spending then you should also be harping on all of these roadways that are built to support people who want to live in suburbia. People living in suburbia are not putting in their fare share to pay for the infrastructure that supports their lifestyle, yet many have an attitude of entitlement when it comes to roads being built.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
Happiness comes from an interconnected society that shares common values, so generally the people tend to agree on most things. It is from a society that sees each other as part of a larger family, and the socialist policies aren't as much seen as confiscation of property from one group to another, but rather is seen as a charity to benefit the people of what amounts to your extended family. Your nation, your people.
As a country grows in population, it tends to disconnect, and socialism is seen less and less as helping your extended family, but more as a redistribution of wealth from the people who will work, to the people who won't. And these welfare recipients are not seen as equals, they are seen a faceless group of people that aren't like you. The more people in a society, the more ideas there will be of how things should be run, and the more divisive a country becomes.
If you truly wanted to be like Europe, you would give much more power to the states and not the federal government(or even support secession). If you truly wanted to be more like Europe, you would block the immigration of peoples that are culturally so radically different that their presence will destroy the ties that bind us as one people. If you don't understand this, then I think you should again look at Europe. Do you know what one of the largest issues in Europe is right now? Immigration. The socialist states are collapsing because of immigration. And most European countries that refuse to close immigration entirely are wanting to heavily slow it, why? Because they want to force the people already in their countries to assimilate.
As someone stated before, you cannot have socialism and open-borders.
Good Points. I agree with what you are saying in regards to socialism and a uniform society. I suppose accepting socialism is much easier if everyone in society is on the same level, and I don't think it's a realistic form of government except for small, uniform nations as you pointed out. Diversity can become a burden if it begins to conflict with the larger society as a whole.
Oh yay, we should be more like Greece! That would be awesome!
Europe is trying to be more like us, and we are trying to be more like them. It hasn't worked for them, it won't work for us.
I definitely think there are some things that we can learn from Europe to make our country better.
I agree 100%. There are elements of both culturally, politically, and structurally that are desirable, and depending on what people find important they may find one superior.
I worked in France for a bit and one thing that struck me that most of the younger people there wanted to be in the US. It was a sample-set bias as this was a small entrepreneurial firm we were contracting to develop software with us so I'd assume they would look enviously at the opportunities for business expansion in the economic environment across the Atlantic.
The other thing that struck me was wow these cats wear some pointy shoes and smoke indoors a lot.
Nothing pisses me off more than when these idiotic Liberals say things like "We should be more like Europe" as if it would be something to be proud of, are these people ignorant of history or what? Look at the unemployment rates in most European countries. I read an article about young people in France who can't find jobs, it is common for young Europeans to live with their parents until they are 30. How sad! Look at the price of things in Europe, my Mom bought me a gift in Germany and the price was about 2x what it would cost here in the US.
Now, better yet, countries like Belgium have a 50% income tax rate, thats right, you work your ass off and the Government takes half of what you earn. I think we should be more like Europe!
Oh, this is really mature and informed. Your unsolicited rant tells me that you recently got kicked out of Europe for being there illegally trying to get some of that 'welfare state' largesse. Since they wouldn't have you, you are going on a tear over here. America is dying slowly because if refuses to be more like Europe. And you know it too.
Oh yay, we should be more like Greece! That would be awesome!
Europe is trying to be more like us, and we are trying to be more like them. It hasn't worked for them, it won't work for us.
Greece is your example of 'Europe'... why am I not surprised. Tell me something. You've debated here awhile (albeit in typical rightie fashion = clueless) do we all look like idiots? FAIL
Your unsolicited rant tells me that you recently got kicked out of Europe for being there illegally trying to get some of that 'welfare state' largesse.
Yup, and all the posters who favor legalizing marijuana obviously just got out of prison for smuggling bales of it.
The dude from the "small living" thread surely was evicted from a mansion he couldn't afford the mortgage on anymore.
The posters who are against welfare were obviously on welfare and got kicked off the program.
Nothing pisses me off more than when these idiotic Liberals say things like "We should be more like Europe" as if it would be something to be proud of, are these people ignorant of history or what? Look at the unemployment rates in most European countries. I read an article about young people in France who can't find jobs, it is common for young Europeans to live with their parents until they are 30. How sad! Look at the price of things in Europe, my Mom bought me a gift in Germany and the price was about 2x what it would cost here in the US.
Now, better yet, countries like Belgium have a 50% income tax rate, thats right, you work your ass off and the Government takes half of what you earn. I think we should be more like Europe!
I don't give two s**** about the European family structure or how much your mommy spent on a German toy. We definitely should be more like Europe! How's that?
10. Belgium = Population 10.7 million
9. Norway = 4.7 million
8. New Zealand = 4.2 million
7. Switzerland = 7.6 million
6. Canada = 33 million
5. Ireland = 4.4 million
4. Sweden = 9.2 million
3. Netherlands = 16.4 million 2. Finland = 5.3 million
1. Denmark = 5.5 million
To say Finland is the happiest country in the world is like saying
the morgue is the happiest place in town. Nobody ever complains.
If boredom equals happiness for you then you'll be fine in Finland .
I personally have nothing against Finland though.
I've lived in New Zealand for a few years but I'm much happier in America.
I'd be much happier if the southern border was secured though.
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