Philadelphia 2035 (Norristown, Darby, Paoli: shopping center, public transportation, car)

[drive carephilly]

Originally Posted by kidphilly

Not sure - But also remember this links in the AM area, parts of North Philly and would use almost exclusively existing ROW. Maybe I need to take the NHSL sometime to see the pain factor from CC out there with the two seat ride. 76 is pretty painful itself...

The art museum and north philly certainly need a subway. I agree with that.

This Route 100 extension is relatively cheap, can get built quickly and despite the modest estimates is more likely to double the ridership on the Route 100.

I don't really see the big deal about the two seat ride. Sure, it's less than ideal but I take a two seat ride to go to Northern Liberties or University City all the time. Transfers are just part of transit. You could never afford to give everyone a one seat ride to every activity center.

As it is now, the ride is seamless coming back into the city on the Route 100. It's a free transfer and because the El has such frequent headways there's no waiting around. Heading out towards KOP there's usually a longer wait but it's not like you're just standing there on the platform. The Route 100 trains are usually already at the platform with the doors open so you can get on and get a seat even if you have to wait 10 minutes for it to leave . . . but that's as it's operated now. The extension is going to require that they put more cars in service/have more frequent departures.

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by drive carephilly

The art museum and north philly certainly need a subway. I agree with that.

This Route 100 extension is relatively cheap, can get built quickly and despite the modest estimates is more likely to double the ridership on the Route 100.

I don't really see the big deal about the two seat ride. Sure, it's less than ideal but I take a two seat ride to go to Northern Liberties or University City all the time. Transfers are just part of transit. You could never afford to give everyone a one seat ride to every activity center.

As it is now, the ride is seamless coming back into the city on the Route 100. It's a free transfer and because the El has such frequent headways there's no waiting around. Heading out towards KOP there's usually a longer wait but it's not like you're just standing there on the platform. The Route 100 trains are usually already at the platform with the doors open so you can get on and get a seat even if you have to wait 10 minutes for it to leave . . . but that's as it's operated now. The extension is going to require that they put more cars in service/have more frequent departures.

I am not disagreeing on the whole I just think there may be better options to serve more people. For example extending further up 422 can add riders or a second spur down 202. With two spurs the less populated areas could have lessor headway and still attract many more fnctional riders.

On the whole the KOP is a good thing in many ways though

[drive carephilly]

Originally Posted by kidphilly

I am not disagreeing on the whole I just think there may be better options to serve more people. For example extending further up 422 can add riders or a second spur down 202. With two spurs the less populated areas could have lessor headway and still attract many more fnctional riders.

On the whole the KOP is a good thing in many ways though

FTR - I'm not disagreeing in principle. I just think that the mode is too expensive to go that far out into the 'burbs and that the only reason we have it in the first place is because it's a legacy system.

The problem isn't the expense of the operating costs. Building heavy rail typically costs $100 million per mile. Tunneling can increase those costs significantly. Regional Rail typically costs $10-$20 million per mile.

422/202 is a problem for a few reasons.

That far out in the burbs people are coming from all over and the % of people coming from Center City is tiny. A hub and spoke system isn't all that useful in terms of serving far flung job centers . . . and this is the basic problem with sprawl/traffic/auto dependency.

When you're serving suburban office parks you might get a few riders during rush hour but there's not much activity in between the am and pm rush and outside of 9-5 there's zero activity. Places like West Chester, Conshy, Media, etc have activity 20 hours a day because they have a good mix of residential, office, retail and restaurant/bar.

Great Valley and the like are far better served by RR because there's just no demand for frequent transit service outside of rush hours and given just how spread out those places are the current shuttle bus system isn't that bad. There could be in the future but until these places change their zoning to allow for a mix of uses it's just not worth the investment IMO.

Now, if you're just talking about park & rides for people who live out there to be able to take the train into the city then yes, RR is still the way to go.

[kidphilly]

Snap Shot: Sansom Street stroll reveals new thrills, existing spills | Philadelphia Real Estate Blog

[RightonWalnut]

205 Race Street



Developer Jeffrey Brown is hoping to transform the vacant lot he owns at 205 Race Street into a 16-story, 128-unit apartment building with commercial uses on the ground floor, he and project architects explained to Old City Civic Association’s developments committee Tuesday morning.

At ~200 feet, this building would be one of the tallest in Old City. The set back tower from the street may grant the developer permission to develop the project.

Article 1
http://philly.curbed.com/archives/20...-city.php#more

Article 2
http://planphilly.com/developer-revi...05-race-street

[RightonWalnut]

Some updated New Market renders. This gained support of the Society Hill Civic Association and goes in front of the ZBA Sept. 5 for variances.





Full article
http://planphilly.com/toll-brothers-...-newmarket-sit

[UDResident]

Originally Posted by kidphilly

from Summer

This is MUCH more like it. Thank God he wised up and got off of that "museum/gallery" idea.

Originally Posted by kidphilly

OCCA turns thumbs down on 205 Race St. version 2.0 | Philadelphia Real Estate Blog

I'm really getting sick of these Center City "community groups". Get a real problem and stop being NIMBYs. At least other "NIMBYs" are actually trying to protect or preserve communities they grew up in.

Originally Posted by jm02

I agree with your comment on the potential of this location. But it's going to take more than bright lights touting the Eagles and Coke to make it a destination. Times Square would not be what it is if at the base of all that glitz there was a a KMart, Butlington Coat Factory, shady electronics outlets and a dozen seedy dollar stores. Bake the cake then put the icing on it: Street level retail needs to take a significant step forward (and I'm not talking Marshall's) for Market East to be more than a place to quickly pass through. I'm hopeful the re-location of the Inquirer offices can be a catalyst for such upgrades.

You can't have anything in Market East without first drawing people into the area and making it safe to be there at all hours of the night.

Originally Posted by rotodome

Yup. Times square has some of NYC's densest business districts and transportation hubs surrounding it, which help to support various levels of retail, but at root the thing that makes it a destination is that it is the heart of the theater district. You don't get a 24 hour entertainment zone without entertainment. It would be nice if some of the (at least movie) theaters that used to be on Market Street could appear there again. That would be great for the city, and would be a new opportunity for the already-hopping restaurant scene.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by kidphilly

ME has an existing transportation hub, but does really lack entertainment and businesses. Would love to see more office space centered around the ME station (a great opportunity for an East Market building surge, now only to lure actual companies...)

Also I think the Gallery could be better used as stated numerous times with better street facing retail. Also to me an opprtunity to have a movie theater, restaurants and something like a D&B on the top floors of the gallery could help. Maybe even some form of a museum or an IMAX history theater etc. More just throwing stuff out there but to me more jobs here (and for the city in general) and some things to do/see would make a tremendous difference to the area.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by rotodome

If I have time, and I remember it I want to photograph some of the original Ed Bacon concept images for market east from his book, since I can't seem to find any on the internet. It was a good idea/design that was never quite realized.

There's a site with them, too. I'll see if I can find it.

Originally Posted by kidphilly

SEPTA Moves Forward with Plans to Extend Norristown High-Speed Line to King of Prussia - Norristown, PA Patch

See, this I don't agree with.

Originally Posted by Marius Pontmercy

I don't get this at all. Who is going to take a multi-seat ride from Philadelphia to go to the King of Prussia Mall? KOP is so autocentric as it is that you almost can't rail commute a job there either, unless your employer provides a shuttle bus at the station. IMO, KOP is hardly ideal for getting rail service. It wasn't built for it. That money could be better spent elsewhere in the system.

Completely agree.

Originally Posted by drive carephilly

The trip time on the Route 100+El is identical to taking the R6/Norristown Line which is 45-50 minutes. The Route 100 express takes 24 minutes to get from Bridgeport to 69th St. The El takes ~15 minutes to get from 69th St. to City Hall.


I don't understand the "is this an option" question. The Route 100 already exists. A few thousand people already ride it to their jobs in Center City/University City. The extension to KOP would have the same trip time as the route already has to Norristown.

KOP is a huge trip attractor. It has a few million square feet of retail, thousands of jobs, a hotel or two, one of the new stations is going to be a big park & ride, etc, etc. If this thing gets built I also expect demand for residential around KOP to increase.

Once you get across the Schuylkill there's no such density of anything (to Oaks, Collegville, etc). There aren't enough people or office parks to justify 20 miles of heavy rail. When rail gets out that way it's going to be regional rail with hourly headways and it's most likely going to start off as diesel. Montgomery County has already been looking into diesel service from the Norristown TC to Quakertown. IMO, diesel service from Norristown TC should already be running to to Pottstown/Reading and to Quakertown. For the cost of a siding and a few switches to turn the trains they could be run as far as Temple where riders could transfer to any other inbound or outbound RR train.



These are already in use during rush hour.

That's exactly what we DON'T need. Auto-centric places like KOP took everything out of more dense, walkable places like Norristown and others. Making them less auto-centric is the EXACT OPPOSITE way to go. Instead, we should be using their weakness of auto-centricity to strengthen places like Norristown, which are transportation hubs.

Furthermore, connecting Center City/Upper Darby and Newtown Square via the old Newtown Square Branch would have more riders in a much denser area, help revive some struggling boroughs and further strengthen the stable ones, while connecting job and retail centers to the city.

We should be getting the jobs out of auto-centric places and into older ones and into the city as well, not stabilizing them there.


I've taken the bus from 69th street to KOP. It takes less than a half-hour.

[soug]

Well this isn't the appropriate thread for this article, but thought you might appreciate it:

Marvel's Venom pulls up NYC stake for Philly steak

[UDResident]

Originally Posted by soug

Well this isn't the appropriate thread for this article, but thought you might appreciate it:

Marvel's Venom pulls up NYC stake for Philly steak

So Venom is a superhero now? That's a bit of a head-scratcher. I love how the AP writer just had to get in the "City of Brotherly Shove" comment. He must feel so proud of himself now.

Still, pretty cool.

[drive carephilly]

Originally Posted by UDResident

That's exactly what we DON'T need. Auto-centric places like KOP took everything out of more dense, walkable places like Norristown and others. Making them less auto-centric is the EXACT OPPOSITE way to go. Instead, we should be using their weakness of auto-centricity to strengthen places like Norristown, which are transportation hubs.

We should be getting the jobs out of auto-centric places and into older ones and into the city as well, not stabilizing them there.

the KOP Mall opened in 1963 when there were 270,000 fewer people in MontCo. In addition to the destruction of capital that would occur from disinvesting in KOP, you'd need at least 4 Norristowns to be able handle all of the retail and office/industrial space.

The easier thing to do is to invest in both places and make both places less auto-dependent.

I've taken the bus from 69th street to KOP. It takes less than a half-hour.

There's nothing wrong with express buses. The problem is that they can't carry as many people as a train so when you have to move more people you need to hire more drivers - as opposed to adding another rail car.