Breast Feeding (bullying, daughters, husband, school)

[Inthesierras]

Originally Posted by skoe

I had an epidural with my first two kids. My third came so fast there was no time. Did you find with the epidural that your lower back would have a pinching pain in it? Mine did for at least a year after. That part I could have done without but I can't imagine not having it for my 24 hour labor with my first and with my second who was born face up rather than face down. OUCH!!

I had back pain too, but it was more of a discomfort, then actual pain. I never thought anything of it. I don't have that problem anymore. Makes me wonder now!

[skoe]

Originally Posted by Inthesierras

I had back pain too, but it was more of a discomfort, then actual pain. I never thought anything of it. I don't have that problem anymore. Makes me wonder now!

Yeah, that is how I was trying to put it, discomfort. I got worried after 6 months of it thinking it may be permanent. I remembered them through a fog of pain telling me all the bad things that could happen due to the epidural and then having me sign the consent form. Well, by that point I was willing to sign my husband away!

[kelabu]

Originally Posted by milliebfit

When I was in nursing school, we had a woman from the leche league come to talk to us about breast feeding. She was going to bring her baby so that we could see breast feeding first hand. Well the baby was almost 3 years old. I could not get the breatfeeding scene out of my head. It was a shocker to me, I was only 19 at the time. I think that is why I bottled fed my very 2 healthy kids. Who are now almost grown, very healthy, very smart and happy kids. Did I go wrong somewhere???

Now, that's hilarious. Some people have been around similar kinds of people for so long, they don't realize how much they're freaking other people out. Whatever you do, there's always someone who has a step further. I saw a woman nursing 2 kids once. Probably a 4&1 year old. I turned around and I just saw two kids standing up with their heads cocked to the side, definitely not discreet. Even I froze at that one. LOL

Originally Posted by deerislesmile

I completely understand that not all women who breastfeed are that way. I don't want anyone here to think that I don't support and educate my clients that choose to breastfeed, or that I would ever discourage any of them from breastfeeding if that was what they wanted to do. In fact, I provide a great amount of support for bfing moms. It just happens that I do it for my ffing moms, too.



What benefit do the hospitals get for giving out the bags- does anyone know? I am curious as to why they continue to give it out, if they know that it's not the best thing to do. Or perhaps why they give it automatically to everyone, instead of asking if the mother would like one? I don't think there is financial gain, so I'm curious as to why they do it. ADVentive, could you find me some studies as to why the hospitals give the bags out?

I meant to say this earlier, but forgot. My mother is a nurse and I have worked in medical publishing and Marketing and PR, so I've seen both sides of things. I remember my mom bringing the trinkets home and talking about the fab lunches from drug reps. If nothing else it sticks in your head, so when you're faced with a choice one day, maybe you'll choose that particular brand b/c you have a fond memory attached to it, or unconciously feel a little and need to 'pay back' the free thing. Someone said earlier it was illegal to give docs certain things. Maybe directly from the company, but there are so many ways around it. A respected publication I worked for, under the guise of publishing legit emerging research, was totally funded by pharma companies to entice doctors. The co. sponsored 'medical meetings' that were free to docs, to places like Disneyworld, Cirque du Soleil, LA, Miami and the like. Completely FREE! Out of 3 days, how much time do you think was really spent talking about helping patients?? Doctors that didn't get invited to these trips probably had no idea what the real point of this publication was. Everyone called to be added to the mailing list b/c they thought we were the experts. At one point, the business development manager, asked that an entire issue be rewritten to highlight research that endorsed our new sponsor!!! not the best medicine, just the highest bidder that month. The last straw was when a patient called the office to ask for a doctor to speak with his insurance company. He was dying and his doc prescribed one of these medicines that the insurance wouldn't pay for. All they asked for was for this highly respected publisher to provide the evidence that had been published about this medicine concerning the applicability to his disease so the insurance could verify. He said no, and hung up in his face. I started looking for another job after that. (I wonder what happened to that man all the time) My point is that I don't know any studies, but from my experience...the doctor, hospital or administrators are getting something, it all comes back to money. I bet hospitals that don't give these out are losing funding someplace else.

[ADVentive]

Originally Posted by deerislesmile

What benefit do the hospitals get for giving out the bags- does anyone know? I am curious as to why they continue to give it out, if they know that it's not the best thing to do. Or perhaps why they give it automatically to everyone, instead of asking if the mother would like one? I don't think there is financial gain, so I'm curious as to why they do it. ADVentive, could you find me some studies as to why the hospitals give the bags out?

I have been looking this up, and here is what I could find.

Source - AAP (American Academy of Pediatrics) website: http://www.aap.org/sections/bioethics/EthicsEssayGiftbags.pdf (broken link)

Most hospitals have contracts with infant formula companies typically stipulating that in return for free or below cost formula, often accompanied by a large monetary grant, the hospital will distribute a diaper or other gift bag with the company's logo and fomula samples to all new mothers.

and later

Formula discharge bags are created and disseminated specifically because formula companies know unequivocally that they result in increased formula sales. To this end, Mead Johnson paid $1,000,000, plus $350,000 per year for a decade to the Toronto Women's College Hospital for an exclusive contract to distribute formula discharge bags. Abbott Labs and Bristol-Myers Squibb engaged in a bidding war for the rights to distribute bags through the Vancouver Grace Hospital, Canada's largest obstetrical facility. Ross Labs bid $1,000,000 for a contract with the Canadian Doctor's Hospital which required the hospital to disseminate discharge bags to all mothers, and specificlly Ross' instructions on nursing to breastfeeding mothers. The bid also included architectural services for the nursery, which was to be situated far from the maternity ward, decreasing mothers' access to their babies for breastfeeding.

From the same article:
Disbursement of formula discharge bags is a specific marketing technique that successfully implies an institutional recommendation of formula, and even that brand of formula, over breastfeeding. By virtue of association with the institution, physicians are perceived to also endorse the product. The latest American Academy of Pediatrics Poly Statement on Breastfeeding and the Use of Human Milk states, "...pediatricians are encouraged to work actively toward eliminating hospital practices that discourage breastfeeding." Among those practices listed as obstacles to successful breastfeeding is the distribution of formula discharge bags. This marketing practice differs from the common practice of distributing free drug samples to patients demonstrating physicians' confidence in the superiority of the sample drug because the "drug" in question (formula) is actually an inferior product in competition with the optimal product (breastfeeding). Still, the ethics of using healthcare providers to advertise any products is a widely published and debated topic.

As you might expect, the AAP has an official policy discouraging the use of the free formula discharge bags.
Breastfeeding and the Use of Human Milk -- Section on Breastfeeding 115 (2): 496 -- AAP Policy

Promote hospital policies and procedures that facilitate breastfeeding. Work actively toward eliminating hospital policies and practices that discourage breastfeeding (eg, promotion of infant formula in hospitals including infant formula discharge packs and formula discount coupons, separation of mother and infant, inappropriate infant feeding images, and lack of adequate encouragement and support of breastfeeding by all health care staff). Encourage hospitals to provide in-depth training in breastfeeding for all health care staff (including physicians) and have lactation experts available at all times.

In addition to the AAP, the ACOG (American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology), APHA (American Public Health Association), and the CDC (Centers for Disease Control) all oppose hospital distribution of free formula discharge bags.
ACOG letter
APHA letter
CDC letter

Here is a list of US hospitals which have banned the dischage bags.

[Mike from back east]

Here's an article in CNN that deserves widespread reading by those with an interest in the topic.

[ADVentive]

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

Here's an article in CNN that deserves widespread reading by those with an interest in the topic.

Why tack it onto a 3.5 year old thread?

Regarding the article though, I think that it offers some good tips and solutions, but it makes it out like breastfeeding is always a horrible ordeal and you have to be a martyr to stick it out. It doesn't have to be like that. What strikes me also is that these women, particularly the first one, went to several "experts" who obviously didn't know what they were talking about. As soon as I read the first few paragraphs I knew what the problem was for her. I think that we need to make sure our "experts" - our pediatricians in particular - are better educated about breastfeeding issues. And with such a low number of mothers who are successful at breastfeeding for a significant amount of time these days, we have lost our community knowledge about the subject too, so it's hard for moms to get accurate info from their own mothers, sisters, friends, etc too.

[Mike from back east]

Originally Posted by ADVentive

Why tack it onto a 3.5 year old thread?

Regarding the article though, I think that it offers some good tips and solutions, but it makes it out like breastfeeding is always a horrible ordeal and you have to be a martyr to stick it out. It doesn't have to be like that. What strikes me also is that these women, particularly the first one, went to several "experts" who obviously didn't know what they were talking about. As soon as I read the first few paragraphs I knew what the problem was for her. I think that we need to make sure our "experts" - our pediatricians in particular - are better educated about breastfeeding issues. And with such a low number of mothers who are successful at breastfeeding for a significant amount of time these days, we have lost our community knowledge about the subject too, so it's hard for moms to get accurate info from their own mothers, sisters, friends, etc too.

City-Data prefers that people use existing threads, no matter how old, if the topic fits, i.e., keep knowledge in one place or as few as possible.

I too was struck by the number of "experts" seen before those women found one who knew what seemed like it should be basic info. If you watch shows like "mystery diagnosis" you see the same scenario play out repeatedly, people go to all sorts of doctors, most of whom don't have any idea what's wrong, so they claim it's the most common of causes, write them an Rx for pills, and dismiss the patient. Only after persistent trial and error, the poor suffering patients stumble onto a doctor who really tries to help and finally figures it out. I've seen many HMO docs who do few if any tests and are quick to dismiss you with granny's home remedy or a standard Rx for cheap generic pills. My faith in the medical profession is growing lower as I age.

I'd like to think that if women post their stories on a website for the topic at hand, we can use the power of the web to almost immediately solve such issues as the link discusses, and not let people suffer for months at the hands of experts who are little more than quacks.

[ADVentive]

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

City-Data prefers that people use existing threads, no matter how old, if the topic fits, i.e., keep knowledge in one place or as few as possible.

But there are numerous other threads on breastfeeding that are more recent than this one. I know because I post on all of them. The problem here is that this thread is relatively long (as most breastfeeding threads get), and half the people who posted here will no longer be around. Since the thread is up again, people may start replying to the old comments, but the old posters are not around to answer them anymore. It just doesn't make sense to me to add this discussion here instead of a new thread, or at least a more recent one. This thread may have been originally about "breastfeeding", but it was not about breastfeeding problems or getting help and advice to overcome issues. It was initially about whether there is a real health difference in breastfed vs formula fed babies, and then evolved into a discussion of the reasons for and the impact of hospitals giving out free formula gift bags to new moms. But, it was kinda fun reading back through that old debate between me and irishmom, in which I cite many sources at every turn and she claims to be a "lactation consultant" who does not encourage her patients to breastfeed and thinks it's fine for hospitals to give out free formula to moms who do breastfeed.

I too was struck by the number of "experts" seen before those women found one who knew what seemed like it should be basic info. If you watch shows like "mystery diagnosis" you see the same scenario play out repeatedly, people go to all sorts of doctors, most of whom don't have any idea what's wrong, so they claim it's the most common of causes, write them an Rx for pills, and dismiss the patient. Only after persistent trial and error, the poor suffering patients stumble onto a doctor who really tries to help and finally figures it out. I've seen many HMO docs who do few if any tests and are quick to dismiss you with granny's home remedy or a standard Rx for cheap generic pills. My faith in the medical profession is growing lower as I age.

I'd like to think that if women post their stories on a website for the topic at hand, we can use the power of the web to almost immediately solve such issues as the link discusses, and not let people suffer for months at the hands of experts who are little more than quacks.

Doctors (as a group) are sadly uneducated about breastfeeding. Studies have shown that the doctors who are most likely to give correct breastfeeding advice to their patients are those whose own child has been breastfed. Meaning that they are educated about it by doing it, not by formal process. And even "lactation consultants" could have any amount of training, from a nurse who took a 3 hour course on breastfeeding and have never done it themselves to an International Board Certified Lactation Consultant (IBCLC) who has had extensive training. (This is evidenced by someone on this thread in fact)

There are several websites that I know of where women post their breastfeeding issues and others with experience help them out. And VERY frequently tell them that whatever their doctor told them is way off. The article mentions BabyCenter, though it's certainly not the first one I would have chosen. First on my list is Kellymom, both for the highly sourced info pages on all aspects of breastfeeding, as well as for the forums. Next is probably La Leche Leage's forums. DiaperSwappers also has a decent-sized breastfeeding advice forum. La Leche League meetings are a place where women can get this kind of mother-to-mother advice in-person. I am quite sure that the first woman's problem would have sparked several people in all of these places to suggest oversupply/ foremilk-hindmilk as the problem. AND they would have suggested block feeding as the best way to solve it, not pumping a little bit before each nursing, which only solves the symptom but not the underlying problem!

[Dorthy]

Originally Posted by ADVentive

What strikes me also is that these women, particularly the first one, went to several "experts" who obviously didn't know what they were talking about. As soon as I read the first few paragraphs I knew what the problem was for her. I think that we need to make sure our "experts" - our pediatricians in particular - are better educated about breastfeeding issues. And with such a low number of mothers who are successful at breastfeeding for a significant amount of time these days, we have lost our community knowledge about the subject too, so it's hard for moms to get accurate info from their own mothers, sisters, friends, etc too.

ITA. I immediately knew that the first women's problem was either a dairy allergy or a hind milk fore milk imbalance. It's really pathetic how little the "experts" know about breastfeeding and when women turn to them for help and can't find solutions they give up. That's sad for the women who wanted to breastfeed but couldn't get the information and support that they needed to be able to continue.

[CharlotteGal]

Originally Posted by ADVentive

But there are numerous other threads on breastfeeding that are more recent than this one. I know because I post on all of them. The problem here is that this thread is relatively long (as most breastfeeding threads get), and half the people who posted here will no longer be around. Since the thread is up again, people may start replying to the old comments, but the old posters are not around to answer them anymore. It just doesn't make sense to me to add this discussion here instead of a new thread, or at least a more recent one. This thread may have been originally about "breastfeeding", but it was not about breastfeeding problems or getting help and advice to overcome issues.

Completely agree with this! I'm surprised that as a moderator, Mike, you don't see the distinction. Lots of folks will skip this part of the discussion, thinking someone erroneously resurrected an old thread. I don't think there's anything like "keeping all knowledge in one place" on City-Data!