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That is what I meant by "channeling the hang ups of adults" because there really is no such "supposed to be private". That "supposed" is entirely our invention. There is no rule on this. No rule book. No law of nature. Nothing. I have seen children of all ages having no qualms about nudity because those qualms were never expressed by their parents for them to pick up on. I watched with amusement - for example - as my 8-9 year old neice on a hot day was told she was allowed use the paddling pool out the back. She was stark naked and half way out the door before her father had even finished issuing his permission. That was in the presence of parents, uncles, siblings and more. Not a single issue about nudity there.
This concept that nudity is meant to be hidden or is "supposed" to be private is a subjective one and we pass it on to our children. I am sure there are some children who genuinely do develop qualms about being seen naked at young ages but the causaility of that will be hard to map and I warrant more often than not it will be due to hang ups and taboos projected on to them by society and parents rather than something they develop themselves. We are... after all... animals and all animals - ourselves included up until very modern times in our evolutionary history - are naked all the time. I see no reason to think that fear of nudity is in any way "natural" per se.
As you say we should respect their modesty when it develops. If they have an issue being seen naked then by all means do not force them to be seen naked and facilitate their desire to change in private. Certainly however I see no reason to develop modesty vicariously on their behalf and until such time as my own children start to express such modesty I am not going to do it for them. Nor pander to people who tell me when I take her swimming that I am not allowed to take her into the mens changing rooms or that there is something fundamentally wrong with her seeing naked men. Or being seen by them.
Your child is only 2. I don't know if that's your only child or if you have older children, but once a child is old enough to know the difference between male and female, and know that their private parts are supposed to be private, modesty is normal. By age 5-6, they have definitely reached that point. I wouldn't call it a "hang up" at all. I would think it pretty natural and normal.
I am over 40 and have not reacehd that point. I agree with m. If there is no outside influence, there is no reason for that modesty to develop.
The "supposed to" is based on societal expectations. We don't live in a nudist culture.
Societal expectations I see no reason to pander to - nor share. I am not talking about a nudist colony here. I am talking about peoples houses and changing rooms where people are "supposed" to be passing through a phase of nakedness. You appear to be taking my specific comments out of the context of the thread and applying to them to a society wide commentary where they were never meant to be applied.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaNomus
I would not consider a child or adult that doesn't wish to be seen nude in front of others as having "hang ups" about nudity.
Nor would I, nor did I suggest this. My comment was about when we develop those wishes vicariously on behalf of someone else. Such as a toddler or small child. They have often got no qualms regarding nudity but people like the Grand Mother in this story do so on their behalf. It is those people I would consider having the "hang ups". Again very much in the context of ones own home and changing rooms at swimming pools and the like. I am clearly not talking about an 8 year old happily, without qualms, strolling naked down to the local shop to buy a can of coke here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaNomus
I can say with all certainty that my child would not be allowed to play outdoors naked, not at 5, not at 9, not at any age past diapers, unless we lived in a very secluded area with no neighbors or passerby.
Yet many people do. As I said above my neice had a paddling pool in their garden. No one had issues, herself included, with her going into it nude in her own garden. I do the same with my 2 year old and will continue to do so until such time as SHE has an issue with it. No one elses wishes or hang ups are relevant in this regard I feel in my own garden. I have seen many people of the same action and opinion in shared gardens from apartment blocks for example.
What you do with your children is your own choice but I would be wary of even slighty exptrapolating your own wish for your own children into a presumed "norm" or "expectation" for society as a whole as quite a number of people do not seem to share your position on it. Nor should they.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaNomus
my child is not going to be taught that she has the right to run around nude at any given place and time she chooses.
Nor mine - but as I said we seem to be moving from one context to another here too freely and much of what I am saying makes no sense if referred to from a context outside the one in which I said them.
Societal expectations I see no reason to pander to - nor share. I am not talking about a nudist colony here. I am talking about peoples houses and changing rooms where people are "supposed" to be passing through a phase of nakedness. You appear to be taking my specific comments out of the context of the thread and applying to them to a society wide commentary where they were never meant to be applied.
Nor would I, nor did I suggest this. My comment was about when we develop those wishes vicariously on behalf of someone else. Such as a toddler or small child. They have often got no qualms regarding nudity but people like the Grand Mother in this story do so on their behalf. It is those people I would consider having the "hang ups". Again very much in the context of ones own home and changing rooms at swimming pools and the like. I am clearly not talking about an 8 year old happily, without qualms, strolling naked down to the local shop to buy a can of coke here.
Yet many people do. As I said above my neice had a paddling pool in their garden. No one had issues, herself included, with her going into it nude in her own garden. I do the same with my 2 year old and will continue to do so until such time as SHE has an issue with it. No one elses wishes or hang ups are relevant in this regard I feel in my own garden. I have seen many people of the same action and opinion in shared gardens from apartment blocks for example.
What you do with your children is your own choice but I would be wary of even slighty exptrapolating your own wish for your own children into a presumed "norm" or "expectation" for society as a whole as quite a number of people do not seem to share your position on it. Nor should they.
Nor mine - but as I said we seem to be moving from one context to another here too freely and much of what I am saying makes no sense if referred to from a context outside the one in which I said them.
My apologies if I misread your original post. In settings like homes and changing rooms, I agree that nudity is expected and normal and shouldn't be an issue. I guess the statement about a 5 year old's modesty being a hang up inflicted by adults led to the rest of the discussion. I don't see modesty as an infliction or a hang up or anything else. I see it as anybody's right and nothing wrong with it, at any age.
And I don't expect everyone to share my position on anything. My position is just that. I base my "norms" on the world around me. The ones I don't agree with, I don't have to follow. The ones I do agree with, I do. That goes for anybody.
The "supposed to" is based on societal expectations. We don't live in a nudist culture. It is normal and expected that people where clothing and keep certain parts of their body from view. I agree that instinctually, humans are not required to wear clothing. But in this society, they are.
What people do in their own homes is, without question, their own business. I would not consider a child or adult that doesn't wish to be seen nude in front of others as having "hang ups" about nudity. I do agree that it is projected onto them by adults, but that projection is by adults who live in this world, in this day and age, and know that people don't run around naked, and that certain parts of their body are private in this particular culture. We raise our children to live in function in the society and culture that WE live in. Modesty, not "fear of nudity," is natural in this culture. If not, there wouldn't be an issue of public nudity being a problem for anyone, because most of society would be okay with it. I would say it's safe to say that most of society is not, making it completely natural for the day, age, and time we are living in for a person not to want to be seen nude.
I can say with all certainty that my child would not be allowed to play outdoors naked, not at 5, not at 9, not at any age past diapers, unless we lived in a very secluded area with no neighbors or passerby. No more than I would allow my child to go to school or the store without clothes. That's just something that is not done. Whether it's evolutionary history, whether or not humans evolved from animals or were created...in 2012 in the US my child is not going to be taught that she has the right to run around nude at any given place and time she chooses. That's just not the way our society works. But again, what anyone chooses to do in their own homes is entirely their business.
I agree with this. I don't see how we can simultaneously teach kids that private parts are private (theirs and other people's) while teaching them that public nudity is ok.
I don't see modesty as an infliction or a hang up or anything else. I see it as anybody's right and nothing wrong with it, at any age.
Agreed. When it actually is modesty. I think however that often it is not but just the child acting out things that parents and society have influenced them on. If we go around our own homes trying to hide our nudity then children will pick up on this. Cartoon for example often have scenes where the character is suddenly bereft of clothing and this is a laughing matter. I could go on for hours but the list of ways we subtely convey to children that nudity is something shameful, comedic or embarrasing is longer than you might imagine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibbiekat
I agree with this. I don't see how we can simultaneously teach kids that private parts are private (theirs and other people's) while teaching them that public nudity is ok.
The question of course is why we need to teach them as being "Private" at all. We can of course teach children about respect for their bodies - the bodies of others - and how one uses ones body or allows others to use it. Teaching them that their bodies need to be hidden away from view however is not part of that.
Yes - AnnaNomus is right to point out societal norms we have such as not walking down the street nude etc etc but when we are talking about the context of ones home - changing rooms - the beach - and so forth - which this thread is actually about - I am unsure why people have such issues with nudity and the idea of nudity. It is as if people are operating under the notion that the naked human body is somehow shameful or dangerous.
I think we can teach children about respect for ones own body without teaching them that nudity is some kind of horrific sin. As I said with my own children - I will let them decide when they want to be covered up in front of others. I will not make that decision for them or be modest vicariously on their behalf.
I agree with this. I don't see how we can simultaneously teach kids that private parts are private (theirs and other people's) while teaching them that public nudity is ok.
Agreed. When it actually is modesty. I think however that often it is not but just the child acting out things that parents and society have influenced them on. If we go around our own homes trying to hide our nudity then children will pick up on this. Cartoon for example often have scenes where the character is suddenly bereft of clothing and this is a laughing matter. I could go on for hours but the list of ways we subtely convey to children that nudity is something shameful, comedic or embarrasing is longer than you might imagine.
The question of course is why we need to teach them as being "Private" at all. We can of course teach children about respect for their bodies - the bodies of others - and how one uses ones body or allows others to use it. Teaching them that their bodies need to be hidden away from view however is not part of that.
Yes - AnnaNomus is right to point out societal norms we have such as not walking down the street nude etc etc but when we are talking about the context of ones home - changing rooms - the beach - and so forth - which this thread is actually about - I am unsure why people have such issues with nudity and the idea of nudity. It is as if people are operating under the notion that the naked human body is somehow shameful or dangerous.
I think we can teach children about respect for ones own body without teaching them that nudity is some kind of horrific sin. As I said with my own children - I will let them decide when they want to be covered up in front of others. I will not make that decision for them or be modest vicariously on their behalf.
For us, it is part of teaching them that no one can touch those parts, except mom and dad giving a bath and the doctor when mom or dad is there.
For us, it is part of teaching them that no one can touch those parts, except mom and dad giving a bath and the doctor when mom or dad is there.
Again wholly agreed. However it is worth noting that this is not a thread about sexually touching children. It is a thread about dressing rooms and bathrooms and nudity. By all means teach children that their body is their own and should not be touched without their consent by anyone. I just fail to see how teaching them that ones body needs to be hidden away at all times has anything to do with that. Many people seem to think any form of nudity - especially between the sexes - is somehow wrong. Like the grandmother who thinks a 6 year old child with their parent in the "wrong" sex changing room is some kind of abomination.
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