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I have a much better handle on how to deal with my kids since my last post many months ago, but I'm still befuddled about why my 4-year-old (who will turn 5 in January) refuses to listen. I've heard of oppositional disorder and am hesitant to slap a diagnosis or some kind of -order on my child, but I'm beginning to wonder if he's physically incapable of listening (or maybe he has a little OCD - speaking of disorders - that he simpy cannot rest until he does what he must do even if it means he gets in trouble).
From the simplest requests to the most serious (don't run across the street), my son just does what he wants to do, more so with me and his babysitter, than with DH or some other male figure (sensei). But even this morning, my husband told my son not to go into his office twice, and then he found him there not 30 seconds after he told him. It's like he couldn't help himself. DH told him he could go there later and my son said "Ok" but still went in there anyway and seemed surprised when DH got upset with him. He'll cry and say "I'm sorry, I'm sorry" and want a hug but then it's out of his brain 10 minutes later when we tell him to do something again and the minute we're out of sight, he does it. I used to attach a much more mature sense of disobedience (more intentional) to his behavior which would make me really despair about the future, but now that I've abandoned that thinking, I can't decide whether it's because he's constantly distracted or just a defiant 4-year-old which is typical...??
Example this morning, he wants to exert his independence putting on his clothes, brushing his teeth, etc., on his own, so I go over it with him since he likes to be told the order of things ("What do I do next... and then after that what do I do?"). This morning he went to the bathroom and was supposed to brush his teeth after washing his hands. He washes his hands but then I find him talking to himself in the mirror. I assumed he'd brushed his teeth already because 10 minutes had passed AND he has one of those electric toothbrushes that turns off after 2 minutes. I tell him to get dressed and then 15 minutes later, I find him just in his underwear talking to himself about superheroes, and then when I confirm that he brushed his teeth, he goes "Oh, I forgot!" That took another 10 minutes. He gets upset when I lead him through every step and plus I'm busy dressing the baby, so I can't stay on top of him every second.
Another time, DH asked him to get dressed and we realized that he wasn't ready 25 minutes later. We discovered him still in his underwear trying to use his stool to put a shirt back on its hanger. These are relatively cute moments (sometimes) - I'm not even going to get into the times he wails over not being able to finish his favorite TV show or finish playing with his toys because it's time to go to school. Those tantrums are not so cute when he refuses to put his shoes on and tempers and patience are lost.
Barring leading him through every step of the way through life at this point (and I'm really getting apprehensive about kindergarten next fall), what's the best way for me to address this? Some people say he's gifted, acting the way he does, and although he may be intellectually ahead of the game, he doesn't seem to be socially. I'm reading "10 days until a less defiant child" AS WELL AS "10 days until a less distracted child" and quite frankly, I still haven't arrived at a solution for us! Or am I overreacting because after all, he's only 4 (with a 6-year-old's vocabulary and will!)?!
I guess my first question is have you gone into the same detail with your pediatrician? What does she/he say? Thoughts from him/her on ADD, ADHD, etc? From how you describe it, it seems like an attention span issue which, surely, is not a 4 year old's best attribute under normal circumstances.
I assume he's in preschool? How is his behavior similar and different at school? Preschool is GREAT for mellowing out the self-centered behaviors that naturally come with being 3,4 and 5 years old. The peer environmental goes a long way in demonstrating what is 'right', thoughtful, what are good listening skills, etc.
My 4 year old listens pretty well and doesn't do any of these things you mentioned but everyone is different, especially at this age. That said, if I were you, I'd be asking my pedi for his/her input and assessment as well as his teachers at school. And, if he's not in any type of preschool environment I would get him in one right away as that could be your magic bullet. Good luck to you.
If you are concerned, it might be a good idea to have him evaluated by a developmental pediatrician or child psychologist. From what I've read (and I'm NOT a doctor), it sounds like he could have ADHD. But it's always better to have a professional evaluation rather than strangers diagnosing your child over the internet.
Thanks Idlewile - he is actually in preschool and has been since he was 2 years old. He's doing extremely well there except for occasional tantrums when he doesn't want to leave (and the teachers have to forcibly help me get him into the car) or if his firm, no-nonsense older teacher leaves early leaving the young, pretty girl in charge, and he completely stops listening to her. When she asks him to do something, he simply says no and if she gets stern, he laughs. I guess no one can do "crazy mommy eyes" like mommy can but I'm a bit surprised that he still has this "anti-youth" attitude about listening. One would think he would be more inclined to listen to the pretty young girl, but not my son.
Gramirez, I think I might use the opportunity when we get him tested for being gifted to get him evaluated. DH is STAUNCHLY against diagnoses like ADHD or any kind of disorder and hates the fact that the minute there's a diagnosis, medication soon follows. If I try to get him tested for ADHD just for its own sake, DH will flip. I will ask the psychologist for an asseessment of his behavior during the testing since we kill two birds with one stone....
But even this morning, my husband told my son not to go into his office twice, and then he found him there not 30 seconds after he told him. It's like he couldn't help himself. DH told him he could go there later and my son said "Ok" but still went in there anyway and seemed surprised when DH got upset with him.
If this is a typical example then I woudl guess that the problem is ineffective limit setting. Getting upset is not effective, as you can see. It tends to distract from the desired action, over riding the child's attention with the feelings of upsetness, remorse or whatever.
The rubber is not meeting the road to say clearly and consistently, I mean what I say (you the parent), and I say what I mean.
If you say that he is not to go into the office, then come hell or high water he is not to go into the office. (Bear in mind then, that you have to be careful not to say no to things that you will regret having to enforce.) A logical or natural consequence is in order. "You are clearly not quite ready to control yourself near the office. I guess I have to lock the door."
WHEN you are responsible enough to play outside without going near the road, THEN you can play in the yard. Until then, you need to play inside unless I am right with you.
WHEN you can walk next to me without wandering off, THEN you you can walk outside of the stroller.
Right now, if I am guessing correctly, when he lightly tests the limits, your actions don't support your No words.
He'll cry and say "I'm sorry, I'm sorry" and want a hug but then it's out of his brain 10 minutes later when we tell him to do something again and the minute we're out of sight, he does it. I used to attach a much more mature sense of disobedience (more intentional) to his behavior which would make me really despair about the future, but now that I've abandoned that thinking, I can't decide whether it's because he's constantly distracted or just a defiant 4-year-old which is typical...??
Example this morning, he wants to exert his independence putting on his clothes, brushing his teeth, etc., on his own, so I go over it with him since he likes to be told the order of things ("What do I do next... and then after that what do I do?"). This morning he went to the bathroom and was supposed to brush his teeth after washing his hands. He washes his hands but then I find him talking to himself in the mirror. I assumed he'd brushed his teeth already because 10 minutes had passed AND he has one of those electric toothbrushes that turns off after 2 minutes.
This is not a discipline matter, this is a developmental awareness matter on your part. A four year old probably is not capable of doing a sequence of things. If he is anywhere for more than a couple of minutes, assume he has lost the plot!
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I tell him to get dressed and then 15 minutes later, I find him just in his underwear talking to himself about superheroes, and then when I confirm that he brushed his teeth, he goes "Oh, I forgot!" That took another 10 minutes. He gets upset when I lead him through every step and plus I'm busy dressing the baby, so I can't stay on top of him every second.
Have him do it NEAR you so you can supervise. You can empathize with him when he gets upset. Yah honey I hear that you don't want me to tell you each step. And I am certain that soon you will be able to do the whole thing, start to finish on your own, but until then I am going to help.
A picture chart woudl help too.
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Another time, DH asked him to get dressed and we realized that he wasn't ready 25 minutes later.
Yah ... leave him for 25 minutes is developmentally not gonna work for a 4yo.
Gramirez, I think I might use the opportunity when we get him tested for being gifted to get him evaluated. DH is STAUNCHLY against diagnoses like ADHD or any kind of disorder and hates the fact that the minute there's a diagnosis, medication soon follows. If I try to get him tested for ADHD just for its own sake, DH will flip. I will ask the psychologist for an asseessment of his behavior during the testing since we kill two birds with one stone....
Identifying these kinds of issues early is paramount. Not all issues warrant the use of medication, but if there is a genuine disability involved, getting educational accommodations and starting behavior modification programs as soon as possible can help prevent much bigger issues down the road. Only you and your husband know what is right for your child. In my opinion, it is not fair to let a child continue to struggle because of parents' preconceived notions about diagnosis and treatment, that are usually false. Parental education is extremely important.
Thanks Somebodynew. I think that we "forget" that he's four given his verbal skills and the fact that he is able to complete sequential tasks several times before. He has the werewithal to get dressed on his own, put dirty clothes in the laundry room, and wash up in the morning, without our involvement, so I guess we assume that he can repeat the behavior.
I tend to think he simply doesn't understand or can't focus because he is 4, but then again, his pre-K teacher tells me that he knows EXACTLY what he's doing and already knows how to manipulate. According to her, if he doesn't "remember" how to do something, it's usually because he doesn't WANT to do it. He never forgets to do something if we tell him he'll get a reward but must we always be bargaining with him to get him to behave and listen to us? We don't want to be in that position all the time because now he expects to bargain.
Thanks Somebodynew. I think that we "forget" that he's four given his verbal skills and the fact that he is able to complete sequential tasks several times before. He has the werewithal to get dressed on his own, put dirty clothes in the laundry room, and wash up in the morning, without our involvement, so I guess we assume that he can repeat the behavior.
There are so many variables! How interesting the mirror is when he walks by. If a magical friend wispered something in his ear.
One thing that worked well for our son was a picture chart, as I mentioned. But what I forgot to mention is that if your son does not want to be told what to do, you might be able to touch his shoulder to get his attention, then point to the place on the chart that he should be.
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I tend to think he simply doesn't understand or can't focus because he is 4, but then again, his pre-K teacher tells me that he knows EXACTLY what he's doing and already knows how to manipulate. According to her, if he doesn't "remember" how to do something, it's usually because he doesn't WANT to do it.
If you conclude that is the case, then you are right back to effective limit setting.
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He never forgets to do something if we tell him he'll get a reward but must we always be bargaining with him to get him to behave and listen to us?
NO! And that does indicate to me that he is capable and needs to be expected to.
It really doesn't seem to me like you even need to pursue an "acronym" diagnosis at this point. Honestly the behavior sounds kind of normal to an extent. Issues with ADD, ADHD, ODD, etc. are things that would be present in every aspect of his life, not just the times and situations you listed. If he is doing well in school and they aren't picking up on any of these "issues" than I doubt that is what you are dealing with. I would say that having him checked isn't necessarily a bad idea, it's just not a road I would go down until I had exhausted other options.
My first question would be what is your process for discipline? somebodynew's post is spot on in this department. Inconsistent and unreinforced discipline doesn't work. Telling him not to go into the office, needs to be met with an appropriate consequence when he does it. This consequence needs to be a universal among all of his caregivers. Kids have a desire to test the limits, in different situations, with different people, etc. He needs to learn what the boundaries are and what the consequences are when you cross those boundaries.
There is no one size fits all for discipline methods for a kid. In fact, it varies even among siblings and can vary by age for an individual as well. Time-outs don't work for everyone and may work well at one point, but not at another.
The key to the whole thing is consistency and especially consistency between caregivers. Breaking a rule with dad, mom or the babysitter all needs to result in the same consequence. You need to think of what those are and agree on them with your husband and then follow through.
Other things like the getting ready in the morning may simply be too much for him to do at his age. Try breaking it down into component steps and giving him one task at a time to follow through on. You may want to make a little chart with pictures and words for what he should do. A picture of a toothbrush with the words, brush your teeth. Then a picture of clothes with the words, get dressed, etc. Don't neglect the wonders of bribery when it comes to compelling behavior. For instance, no TV in the morning until you are ready to go. Earning a priviledge by doing what you're supposed to do can sometimes net better results than being punished for not doing something.
He is only 4. If you set this precedence now, you are HOSED when he is old enough to bargain better.
This is a good point. My wife and I found ourselves in this position with our son. Once we instituted a "reward" for doing something, it gradually became expected to do anything. We ended it by flipping it around. Our "rewards" our now the earning of priviledges, that used to be taken for granted, when expectations are met.
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