defiant, distracted, or simply his age? (pills, spanking, parents, boys)
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It really doesn't seem to me like you even need to pursue an "acronym" diagnosis at this point. Honestly the behavior sounds kind of normal to an extent. Issues with ADD, ADHD, ODD, etc. are things that would be present in every aspect of his life, not just the times and situations you listed. If he is doing well in school and they aren't picking up on any of these "issues" than I doubt that is what you are dealing with. I would say that having him checked isn't necessarily a bad idea, it's just not a road I would go down until I had exhausted other options.
My first question would be what is your process for discipline? somebodynew's post is spot on in this department. Inconsistent and unreinforced discipline doesn't work. Telling him not to go into the office, needs to be met with an appropriate consequence when he does it. This consequence needs to be a universal among all of his caregivers. Kids have a desire to test the limits, in different situations, with different people, etc. He needs to learn what the boundaries are and what the consequences are when you cross those boundaries.
There is no one size fits all for discipline methods for a kid. In fact, it varies even among siblings and can vary by age for an individual as well. Time-outs don't work for everyone and may work well at one point, but not at another.
The key to the whole thing is consistency and especially consistency between caregivers. Breaking a rule with dad, mom or the babysitter all needs to result in the same consequence. You need to think of what those are and agree on them with your husband and then follow through.
Other things like the getting ready in the morning may simply be too much for him to do at his age. Try breaking it down into component steps and giving him one task at a time to follow through on. You may want to make a little chart with pictures and words for what he should do. A picture of a toothbrush with the words, brush your teeth. Then a picture of clothes with the words, get dressed, etc. Don't neglect the wonders of bribery when it comes to compelling behavior. For instance, no TV in the morning until you are ready to go. Earning a priviledge by doing what you're supposed to do can sometimes net better results than being punished for not doing something.
More great ideas! I will definitely keep the morning routine in mind and use pictures since he responds to pictures well more than verbal commands. Expecting him to do multiple tasks without distraction is asking too much of him.
As for discipline, I'm afraid that DH's method of discipline is loud since that's what he grew up with. Occasionally, depending on the offense, it will be accompanied by a spank on the bum. Come to think of it, my parents weren't loud, but I got the "clenched teeth" response, "If I have to tell you one more time..." so neither of us is a bastion of patience and calm understanding when our sons don't listen or show defiance when warned repeatedly. DS got yelled at when he went into the office and was sent to his room until DH was ready to get him. Granted, DH has a really bad back right now it doesn't take much to get him irritated these days, unfortunately. I don't yell but I send him to his room almost like a time-out until he calms down and even then, he tries to come downstairs on his own, we send him right back up until we say so. TV goes off and toys go away. I should probably remove books too so he doesn't even have that to "play with" when he's being disciplined. The room should be really boring.
The babysitter unfortunately is not that firm a personality so my son is smart enough to know that she "puts on" a stern face and laughs at her when she says "Stop!" She tries to put him in time out or turn off the TV when he turns it on but he just eludes her and runs away laughing... until Mommy or Daddy comes home and the waterworks start. "Mommy/Daddy, I was bad..." and he expects a hug. Those are the times when I think he knows exactly what he's doing. My friend says we need a new babysitter who has more experience with children and won't bend to anything they ask for but we're not ready for that step yet.
More great ideas! I will definitely keep the morning routine in mind and use pictures since he responds to pictures well more than verbal commands. Expecting him to do multiple tasks without distraction is asking too much of him.
As for discipline, I'm afraid that DH's method of discipline is loud since that's what he grew up with. Occasionally, depending on the offense, it will be accompanied by a spank on the bum.
In my opinion, it is a mistake to equate discipline with punishment. Consequences are only one small part of a good discipline strategy. Three great resources for building an effective strategy:
Come to think of it, my parents weren't loud, but I got the "clenched teeth" response, "If I have to tell you one more time..." so neither of us is a bastion of patience and calm understanding when our sons don't listen or show defiance when warned repeatedly.
Who would be? It is a nasty cycle. Ineffective discipline yields bad behavior. Bad behavior yields frustrated parents. Frustrated parents resort to ineffective discipline. Rinse, repeat! Yuck! Who wants to be on that ride? The Limits author calls that the family dance.
Get off the dance floor! Luckily he is only 4. So you do it now, learn new skills and get renewed family peace.
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The babysitter unfortunately is not that firm a personality so my son is smart enough to know that she "puts on" a stern face and laughs at her when she says "Stop!" She tries to put him in time out or turn off the TV when he turns it on but he just eludes her and runs away laughing... until Mommy or Daddy comes home and the waterworks start. "Mommy/Daddy, I was bad..." and he expects a hug. Those are the times when I think he knows exactly what he's doing. My friend says we need a new babysitter who has more experience with children and won't bend to anything they ask for but we're not ready for that step yet.
If your sitter cannot learn effective discipline, it is time for a new sitter.
I have a much better handle on how to deal with my kids since my last post many months ago, but I'm still befuddled about why my 4-year-old (who will turn 5 in January) refuses to listen. I've heard of oppositional disorder and am hesitant to slap a diagnosis or some kind of -order on my child, but I'm beginning to wonder if he's physically incapable of listening (or maybe he has a little OCD - speaking of disorders - that he simpy cannot rest until he does what he must do even if it means he gets in trouble).
From the simplest requests to the most serious (don't run across the street), my son just does what he wants to do, more so with me and his babysitter, than with DH or some other male figure (sensei). But even this morning, my husband told my son not to go into his office twice, and then he found him there not 30 seconds after he told him. It's like he couldn't help himself. DH told him he could go there later and my son said "Ok" but still went in there anyway and seemed surprised when DH got upset with him. He'll cry and say "I'm sorry, I'm sorry" and want a hug but then it's out of his brain 10 minutes later when we tell him to do something again and the minute we're out of sight, he does it. I used to attach a much more mature sense of disobedience (more intentional) to his behavior which would make me really despair about the future, but now that I've abandoned that thinking, I can't decide whether it's because he's constantly distracted or just a defiant 4-year-old which is typical...??
Example this morning, he wants to exert his independence putting on his clothes, brushing his teeth, etc., on his own, so I go over it with him since he likes to be told the order of things ("What do I do next... and then after that what do I do?"). This morning he went to the bathroom and was supposed to brush his teeth after washing his hands. He washes his hands but then I find him talking to himself in the mirror. I assumed he'd brushed his teeth already because 10 minutes had passed AND he has one of those electric toothbrushes that turns off after 2 minutes. I tell him to get dressed and then 15 minutes later, I find him just in his underwear talking to himself about superheroes, and then when I confirm that he brushed his teeth, he goes "Oh, I forgot!" That took another 10 minutes. He gets upset when I lead him through every step and plus I'm busy dressing the baby, so I can't stay on top of him every second.
Another time, DH asked him to get dressed and we realized that he wasn't ready 25 minutes later. We discovered him still in his underwear trying to use his stool to put a shirt back on its hanger. These are relatively cute moments (sometimes) - I'm not even going to get into the times he wails over not being able to finish his favorite TV show or finish playing with his toys because it's time to go to school. Those tantrums are not so cute when he refuses to put his shoes on and tempers and patience are lost.
Barring leading him through every step of the way through life at this point (and I'm really getting apprehensive about kindergarten next fall), what's the best way for me to address this? Some people say he's gifted, acting the way he does, and although he may be intellectually ahead of the game, he doesn't seem to be socially. I'm reading "10 days until a less defiant child" AS WELL AS "10 days until a less distracted child" and quite frankly, I still haven't arrived at a solution for us! Or am I overreacting because after all, he's only 4 (with a 6-year-old's vocabulary and will!)?!
Oh my goodness! The parts I've bolded sound very much like my 8 yo! I won't attempt to label or diagnose him, but I'll tell you what my son does and what he has.
Since birth something has been "off" with my son. Around age 2-3 I started to think he had ADHD. My husband, the pediatrician, the grandparents, all said "he's just a boy." Around age 6 I started to notice that his 4 yo brother could do things that he couldn't especially with regard to getting dressed in the morning. LO4 could simply get dressed and brush his teeth w/o much help. LO6 needed to be reminded every step of the way. The best way I can describe it is that EVERYTHING was and still is a distraction. your whole paragraph could have been written about my son.
He also had trouble transitioning from one activity to another. It was especially bad when it was going from a fun to a not-fun activity. What you wrote above about not being able to finish his TV show, not putting on his shoes, sounds like trouble transitioning. He also gets very intense about pretend play, and drawing pictures, and absolutely can't stop until he's finished.
So, at age 7 I started taking him to a therapist. She is the one who suggested we have him evaluated for Sensory Processing Disorder. We did, and he has it. An Occupational Therapist did a 2-hour eval on him, and he's been in weekly OT for about 9 months now. He also still sees the therapist who thinks he has "Asperger's-like behaviors." I haven't had him evaluated for that, or for ADHD because he does well in school, and his behaviors aren't that bad.
I would suggest you have him evaluated by a developmental pediatrician or by early intervention. I wish we'd done something earlier. Good luck.
ETA I haven't read the responses yet, but I'm sure someone will tell you his behavior is due to lack of discipline by you. Let me tell you, one of the things I feel the worst about in having him evaluated at 7 instead of 3 or 4, is all of the times I punished him for behaviors he couldn't help. His behavior was most certainly not for lack of discipline. He simply couldn't help it. He sounds just like your son.
ETA #2 SPD is not treated with medication, if that would put your husband's mind at ease. Also lists have helped my son. We started with pictures of what he had to do to get ready in the morning. Now that he can read, we use a dry-erase chore chart with words. Knowing what comes next is important. He still gets distracted by every little thing though.
Last edited by Kibbiekat; 11-16-2011 at 03:04 PM..
The babysitter unfortunately is not that firm a personality so my son is smart enough to know that she "puts on" a stern face and laughs at her when she says "Stop!" She tries to put him in time out or turn off the TV when he turns it on but he just eludes her and runs away laughing... until Mommy or Daddy comes home and the waterworks start. "Mommy/Daddy, I was bad..." and he expects a hug. Those are the times when I think he knows exactly what he's doing. My friend says we need a new babysitter who has more experience with children and won't bend to anything they ask for but we're not ready for that step yet.
You and DH need to come up with a disciplinary plan that the babysitter can enforce in such a way that son understands she means business. For example, if son is out of line, babysitter takes away tv. If son laughs at her and turns the tv back on, then babysitter unplugs the tv or cable box so that the tv channels can't be turned back on. Or, changes the input.
If the babysitter can't enforce after that, time for a new babysitter.
Next:
If you come home and son says "I was bad" and expects a hug?! I really hope your are not feeding into this little manipulation. By him expressing he was bad, and then you reinforcing his behavior by giving him a hug, you just justified him being bad.
A better solution would be to make him accountable for his behavior. When you get him, you, son and babysitter have an end of babysitting conference to evaluate how the day went. If son was out of line, ask him why and allow him to explain himself. If he was bad, then he doesn't earn an evening privilege - no tv time, story time, dessert, etc.
Next:
"Go to your room" - I'm a big believer that time out punishment needs to be as miserable as possible. Laying on his bed, or sitting his room with the comforts of his toys, books or other items he could maybe play with doesn't cut it. It also means you are not monitoring that he really is following through with the punishment. My grandmother used to set us down on the stairway steps. If we attempted to not stay put (we didn't test grandma, she meant business, so that was usually not the case), she would issue a good swat on the butt because that is how her generation does it. A stool in the corner of the living room / dining / kitchen / etc is another great example. BORING! If we cried, complained, didn't stay put, our time was extended until we could behave ourselves.
This sounds pretty normal to me. My dd is almost exactly your son's age (will be 5 in January.) She also will do exactly what she was just told not to, or when you tell her to stop doing something, she'll keep doing it until you let her know you mean it. As long as she feels there will be no consequences for her doing what she feels like doing, she's going to do it. I often solve this by telling her once, then after that telling her what will happen if she continues doing it. There's only been a few instances where it continued from there and I had to follow through on the threat.
In the mornings, she also likes to get herself dressed and brush her own teeth and wash her own face, but I have to monitor her and lead her to the next step. I will lay out her clothes and tell her to get dressed, then leave. Five minutes later, if I check and she's still sitting around, I will tell her, "Get dressed. If you're not dressed when I get back, I'll do it for you." She doesn't want that, so usually I come back in five minutes and she's dressed. Then I have to tell her, "Okay, time to brush your teeth." And so on. I wouldn't leave her for more than a few minutes, because she will get distracted and start doing something else, like reading a book or playing.
I think you're doing the right thing by not rushing to a diagnosis. Try other methods of getting him to listen and do what he's supposed to do. I wouldn't worry unless it gets out of control or he simply will not follow through no matter what you try.
So it seems we have the same child Mine will be 5 at the end of December. I have very little advice except to say that I've had the ADHD discussion both with the pediatrician and preschool teacher and neither think that's what we're dealing with because he works very well at school...as long as they give him more and more work to do. He also can play with legos or other building toys for hours at a time. The key with my son is keeping him occupied at all times.
So while I have yet to find the true answer to his behavior issues here are a few things we're doing to try and stay sane.
1. Exercise...we run him for 2-4hrs every day. I put rainboots and a parka and throw him outside.
2. 123 Magic (it works! I was shocked but it does)
3. Independence. Mommy stops helping you dress in this house at 3 (I do help with hard buttons and zippers). I don't even cut up your food after 4. I lay out your clothes until you're 6.
You get an alarm clock and are expected downstairs for breakfast fully dressed with your bed made, if you don't show up no food...I realize this doesn't work for all parents but my kids will do a lot for food. I refuse to have a battle before my coffee so I don't even engage my kids until they come downstairs for breakfast, except for a "good morning!"
It sounds to me that you need to force him to grow up a little but at the same time ease him into it. Give the bedtime routine and set a timer or sit on his bed and "see how fast" he can get it all done.
Rewards are great but we struggle with constantly rewarding him for things that we expect of our children. I haven't found a good solution there yet as our son doesn't really respond to threats (and I've tried!).
I don't think all of it is a discipline issue. (Especially since you've been trying to solve this for some time now.) Not if he's smart but gets easily distracted. Distracted being the key word here and the 25 minutes is my clue. (I'd peek in on him to see what he's doing for those 25 minutes. If he's spending 25 minutes trying to hang up a shirt something is wrong.) And I think the tantrums are separate fom the easily distracted thing.
Usually I'm the last person who say's "Get an evaluation" but I would if he were my son. It sounds like there's a "misfire" in his brain. Something isn't processing correctly.
(Edited to say misfire which isn't really the word I wanted. But the word I wanted got **** instead.)
I I'm not even going to get into the times he wails over not being able to finish his favorite TV show or finish playing with his toys because it's time to go to school. Those tantrums are not so cute when he refuses to put his shoes on and tempers and patience are lost.
How much screen time is he getting? I read something just the other day about how tv in the morning before school is linked to behavior issues.
I try to make the morning about getting dressed and ready for school and eating breakfast. Then we just talk about the day or maybe read a book if there's time. I would consider eliminating the tv and playtime in the morning...makes going to school seem like a bummer
I don't think all of it is a discipline issue. (Especially since you've been trying to solve this for some time now.) Not if he's smart but gets easily distracted. Distracted being the key word here and the 25 minutes is my clue. (I'd peek in on him to see what he's doing for those 25 minutes. If he's spending 25 minutes trying to hang up a shirt something is wrong.) And I think the tantrums are separate fom the easily distracted thing.
Usually I'm the last person who say's "Get an evaluation" but I would if he were my son. It sounds like there's a "misfire" in his brain. Something isn't processing correctly.
(Edited to say misfire which isn't really the word I wanted. But the word I wanted got **** instead.)
My guess would be there was something going on other than hanging the shirt. Probably goofing around...but I also think that most parents would have at least yelled a "hey what's taking so long?" or "hurry up its breakfast time" I wonder what the OP was doing?
ETA - Sorry OP that sounds kind of insulting, didn't mean to be, just trying to picture how the morning works in your house.
How much screen time is he getting? I read something just the other day about how tv in the morning before school is linked to behavior issues.
I try to make the morning about getting dressed and ready for school and eating breakfast. Then we just talk about the day or maybe read a book if there's time. I would consider eliminating the tv and playtime in the morning...makes going to school seem like a bummer
This is a good point, and a change we made for my son this school year. Last year, after his SPD dx, we did away with TV in the morning before school. School starts late here, and he gets up early. We have plenty of time for it, but the transition of turning it off was bad. This school year, we did away with TV after school. They only get it for 30 min before bed after homework and chores are done. It has been a good change!
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Mine will be 5 at the end of December. I have very little advice except to say that I've had the ADHD discussion both with the pediatrician and preschool teacher and neither think that's what we're dealing with because he works very well at school...as long as they give him more and more work to do. He also can play with legos or other building toys for hours at a time. The key with my son is keeping him occupied at all times. 
