News, Punishment without spanking. (teens, girls, activities, daughter)
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No wonder he doesn't listen to your wife. In my experience children who are spanked only will behave when they fear getting hit. They tend to not respect those who won't hit them.
Indeed. I presume the rest of it was not worth addressing? Or is it a case of "we see what we wish in our special, special world"...?
Being spanked just made me want to lash out more. Didn't work at all. My parents quickly realized talking to me and reasoning with me worked much better.
See? This is why I don't think anyone bothers to read the posts. I am not the slightest bit enraged. That SOME parents abuse their kids is not a decent reason for other thinking parents to hold the bar a little higher than just failure to abuse your kids. It is not about abuse or not abuse.
It is about doing the BEST for our children. If one way is good and another way is better, why would you not choose better?
Share a thought with people who wish to defend themselves ... and you get this nonsense. Do I think that a spanked kid is going to turn out to be a monster? I surely hope not. That would make me a monster. Do I think that there are MUCH better ways to raise your kids? Youbetcha.
Excuse me. I didn't realize this was the Non Spanking Thread only. You expressed your belief, I expressed mine. Nothing you or any other stranger on the internet can tell me will ever convince me that they know what works better with my child than I do.
Nonsense? Ok, whatever. Seems to me you are the one getting pretty defensive. If you are so sure you're right, do what you feel. I'm certainly not about to get my panties in a bunch because I can't convince you MY way is right. People have all different ways of dealing with their kids that I personally don't agree with and would never do with my own. Does it bother me? Yeah sometimes. Is it my place to change them and convince them how wrong they are? Not unless the parent is breaking some law or causing the child severe harm.
So if you're here to convince us all that you are the enlightened one and you know best for all the world's children, I'm very sorry to disappoint you.
Excuse me. I didn't realize this was the Non Spanking Thread only. You expressed your belief, I expressed mine. Nothing you or any other stranger on the internet can tell me will ever convince me that they know what works better with my child than I do.
I guess I wonder why no one responds to the actual points being made. Instead it sounds like I don't get it because I did not bother to read any of it. If you don't understand the debate, it makes sense if you have not read the debate.
I thought Anna stated it very nicely. There are five (yes, five) kids murdered per day in the US and some people are enraged over a swat on the butt?
Child murders are more common in societies where hitting children it the dominant form of discipline. There is clearly a link between corporal punishment of children and aggression later on. Do I think spanking causes all people to become murderers? Absolutely not, but I do think hitting children promotes a more violent society in general.
And as a member of this society, I really wish people would educate themselves about disciplining children. Saying that the options are hitting or timeouts and grounding shows a lack of understanding about effective discipline.
And as a member of this society, I really wish people would educate themselves about disciplining children. Saying that the options are hitting or timeouts and grounding shows a lack of understanding about effective discipline.
The conversation falls down because many people equate discipline with punishment. The framework of good, effective discipline has way more in it than punishment or consequences. Allowing/choosing the best consequences (natural or logical) is PART of the framework, but only one small part,
The problem with the conversation over a good discipline framework is that it has a lot of interconnected pieces that cannot be easily summed up in a forum post. The importance of children feeling capable and compentent to solve problems. The importance of actually learning problem solving skills. (How many parents assume that a misbehavior is willful when it may actually be cluelessness? How much damage do we do when we punish cluelessness?) The importance of self esteem being built not solely on accomplishment, and the fragility of esteem built on accomplishment. The importance of understanding barriers to cooperation. The importance of understanding how to engender cooperation.
There is no one work or treatise on a good discipline framework. And the thinking on it does not end. It is not achieved and then left to rest. The seeking of that understanding goes on and on. I am reading book number God Only Knows about the Wonder of Boys. You think, you judge, you correct.
People don't want to do that. They want a cookbook that says do this and everything will be ok. When they misbehave, put them in time out. When they misbehave, spank them. Done and done, easy peasy Japeneasy.
But truthfully, if you aren't going to think about a comprehensive framework of discipline that extends beyond your choice of punishment, any choice of punishment may be as good as another.
The conversation falls down because many people equate discipline with punishment. The framework of good, effective discipline has way more in it than punishment or consequences. Allowing/choosing the best consequences (natural or logical) is PART of the framework, but only one small part,
The problem with the conversation over a good discipline framework is that it has a lot of interconnected pieces that cannot be easily summed up in a forum post. The importance of children feeling capable and compentent to solve problems. The importance of actually learning problem solving skills. (How many parents assume that a misbehavior is willful when it may actually be cluelessness? How much damage do we do when we punish cluelessness?) The importance of self esteem being built not solely on accomplishment, and the fragility of esteem built on accomplishment. The importance of understanding barriers to cooperation. The importance of understanding how to engender cooperation.
There is no one work or treatise on a good discipline framework. And the thinking on it does not end. It is not achieved and then left to rest. The seeking of that understanding goes on and on. I am reading book number God Only Knows about the Wonder of Boys. You think, you judge, you correct.
People don't want to do that. They want a cookbook that says do this and everything will be ok. When they misbehave, put them in time out. When they misbehave, spank them. Done and done, easy peasy Japeneasy.
But truthfully, if you aren't going to think about a comprehensive framework of discipline that extends beyond your choice of punishment, any choice of punishment may be as good as another.
You got part of it right: People tend to equate discipline with punishment.
That's why as soon as I mention a form of punishment, you folks ASSUME (and by assume I mean gross, erroneous and clearly biased prejudicial assumption) that this is my means of DISCIPLINE rather than a consequence. You ASSUME that punishment is the first resort rather than the last.
After all, if I'm willing to spank then SURELY it must mean I lash out physically toward my child rather than ever-Ever-EVER explaining anything, and even if [insert haughty *sniff* here] I DO ever happen to bother explaining, if he doesn't get it the first time then POW -- to the woodshed with you, boy! Ah'll get 'at 'ere nollidge in'a ya iffen ah haf ta BEAT it in'a ya!
Indeed, your gross assumption indicates who 'twixt the pair of us lacks adequate imagination with regard to parenting. Hint: It's not me.
It's a good thing you've got God to guide you and we're not resorting to Biblical punishme--.... hey, wait a darned minute...!
Indeed, your gross assumption indicates who 'twixt the pair of us lacks adequate imagination with regard to parenting. Hint: It's not me.
You are replying to me and using the word "you", so I guess you are directing this to me. I never once said anything to equate spanking with lashing out physically. Not once. You must be mistaking me with someone else.
For the record, punishment plus explanations don't a complete discipline framework make, in my opinion.
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It's a good thing you've got God to guide you and we're not resorting to Biblical punishme--.... hey, wait a darned minute...!
So I was walking my dogs (both border collies) today when something occurred that made me think about this thread. My older dog doesn't walk on a leash. She is one of the town goose dogs (so is exempt from the leash law) and is also extremely well trained (she was a rescue but I got her at about a year old). My younger dog does walk on a leash even though he does not legally have to but he is not reliable about not chasing a rabbit or squirrel. I mention this because a woman came up to me to ask why one was off the leash and one on. So I explained about the younger dogs lack of "trustworthiness" with regard to his own safety, and she mentioned some people should do that with their children.
It made me think about the most common reason, or example of why parents hit their small children, to prevent them "running in the road". But why is that even possible? My dogs as much as I love them do not have the inherent value of a child and I make sure it is not possible for the younger one to run in the road. Even if he did I wouldn't hit him over it (since I never hit my dogs) but would do what I do now which is make sure he does not have that option until he is old enough to now better. So why aren't kids just kept out of those situations until they know better? Why is hitting them better than actually protecting them?
Same thing with the "hot stove" example. Why are little children being given access to hot stoves in the first place? Border collies jump up on everything, and are also in danger of burning themselves when given access to the kitchen. For that reason we use a baby gate to keep the puppies out of the kitchen. If we can take these precautions for our pets I do not understand why they are then used to justify hitting our children?
Now I readily admit my discipline for children right through 8,9, maybe even 10 yo is very similar to that of my discipline for my dogs. But I have never felt the need to hit my dogs who are also not capable of being "reasoned with", or given time outs, etc. in the exact same fashion I have never felt the need to hit my children.
I wonder though, do the people who hit their children also hit their pets and if so is it for the same reasons?
It made me think about the most common reason, or example of why parents hit their small children, to prevent them "running in the road". But why is that even possible? So why aren't kids just kept out of those situations until they know better? Why is hitting them better than actually protecting them?
That is what I don't really get. You are presumably protecting them AS WELL. I don't see what hitting ads to the equation. Protect them until they ARE old enough to understand danger.
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Same thing with the "hot stove" example. Why are little children being given access to hot stoves in the first place?
Even a 2yo will get WHEN you are responsible enough not to touch the element THEN you can help Mommy stir.
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I wonder though, do the people who hit their children also hit their pets and if so is it for the same reasons?
I don't know a lot about dogs. But from what little I know, the tendency is to move way away from hitting as a disciplinary "tool".
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