NC and the US Census (Charlotte, Raleigh: statistics, airport, beaches)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Cities put out a lot of false info to make their metros look bigger than they are. For example the RDU area refers to itself as the Triangle so they can add as many counties as they like.
The region is referred to as the Triangle because of Research Triangle Park first and foremost.
Outside of that, there are plenty of places throughout the country that have a regional designation that is broader than their official MSA/CSA designations, which only take commuting statistics into account. .Those broader regional designations also consider links beyond commuting, such as media markets, leisure/recreational connections, etc. Although Savannah and Beaufort/Hilton Head aren't a CSA, they share an airport and are consider themselves as part of singular region. The larger Augusta/Aiken area is known as the CSRA (Central Savannah River Area) which includes other counties outside of the official metropolitan area. And so on and so forth.
Everybody knows what the criteria is, but Raleigh and Durham being separate MSAs is really a fluke due to RTP, which is truly the linchpin of the metropolitan area. Because a huge chunk of it is located in Durham County and it contains no permanent residents, it results in two distinct MSAs statistically but for all intents and purposes, the Triangle should be considered a singular MSA.
Mutiny, I understand what you are saying. I always respect your thoughts and comments. But the Census Bureau cannot make an exception for the Raleigh MSA. They cannot add an asterisk. I have stated throughout this forum that the Census Bureau has a metro designation for metros like Raleigh and that is the CSA. I do not understand why Raleigh does not just acknowledge the MSA quagmire and report it as is while also reporting the CSA. I don't think other regions make the big deal out of it that has been made in Raleigh. I know that Greensboro has complained a bit but nothing like Raleigh. And Greensboro has not used deception like Raleigh. Maybe the Bureau will change it. But the Bureau has stated that the central county is about domination. Due to the RTP, Wake is not dominant. I do not know what else to say. The Bureau has ruled.
The RTP is in Wake AND Durham County. As are Raleigh and Durham city. In fact Cary is also in both the Raleigh and Durham MSA. There is no asterisk, there are simply the facts. The Triangle is a singular economic market split between two MSA’s due to a quirk of OMB guidelines that they literally wrote up out of thin air. Again, Wake and Durham have the highest connection of commuting patterns of any two counties in the state. More than Mecklenburg and any county in its orbit. So while the Raleigh and Durham MSA’s are real things with real stats making them, they have existed only on paper for the last 18 years. The Triangle was forged nearly 70 years ago, and better reflects the lived-in experience. If you are confused by a website not showing you proper Census information, it’s probably because you are not on the Census website (though even that can be a chore to find the right Census website). Time to pull an Elsa and let it go.
I agree that Raleigh and Durham being designated as distinct MSAs is a quirk or fluke, but that doesn't mean the the OMB guidelines have no sensible real world basis. Rather, the Triangle is simply THE exception in terms of how it came to be. RTP is a postwar office park that was intentionally built to pull Raleigh and Durham together into a singular metropolitan area/regional office market. That's an anomaly of anomalies.
The other two CSAs that should be considered MSAs for all intents and purposes is Salt Lake City/Provo/Ogden and San Francisco/San Jose. And they are out west and have funky western geography to thank for being broken up as they are.
Mutiny, I understand what you are saying. I always respect your thoughts and comments. But the Census Bureau cannot make an exception for the Raleigh MSA. They cannot add an asterisk. I have stated throughout this forum that the Census Bureau has a metro designation for metros like Raleigh and that is the CSA. I do not understand why Raleigh does not just acknowledge the MSA quagmire and report it as is while also reporting the CSA. I don't think other regions make the big deal out of it that has been made in Raleigh. I know that Greensboro has complained a bit but nothing like Raleigh. And Greensboro has not used deception like Raleigh. Maybe the Bureau will change it. But the Bureau has stated that the central county is about domination. Due to the RTP, Wake is not dominant. I do not know what else to say. The Bureau has ruled.
Nobody said the Census/OMB should make an exception for Raleigh. But people have common sense and are able to come to reasonable conclusions based on the evidence for themselves. To be honest, you kinda sound like the guy from Baltimore on the City vs City/General US forum that insists that Baltimore and DC are Southern only because the Census Bureau categorizes them as such. Real life doesn't always follow strict considerations based on formulas. And MSA/CSA criteria and designations are constantly changing and fluctuating anyway. But every time there's a change on paper that doesn't mean that people's perceptions change or that they ought to change. We live in a rapidly changing country with high mobility and varying development intensities, and the Census/OMB is simply trying to catch up to a constantly changing demographic landscape. It's best not to put so much stock in any one designation that's subject to change in a few short years or that only changed a few years ago.
That said, most knowledgeable folks also consider the Bay Area and greater Salt Lake City to be larger singular markets that are better reflected by their CSAs than their MSAs also, so Raleigh isn't alone in this sense.
Mutiny, I understand what you are saying. I always respect your thoughts and comments. But the Census Bureau cannot make an exception for the Raleigh MSA. They cannot add an asterisk. I have stated throughout this forum that the Census Bureau has a metro designation for metros like Raleigh and that is the CSA. I do not understand why Raleigh does not just acknowledge the MSA quagmire and report it as is while also reporting the CSA. I don't think other regions make the big deal out of it that has been made in Raleigh. I know that Greensboro has complained a bit but nothing like Raleigh. And Greensboro has not used deception like Raleigh. Maybe the Bureau will change it. But the Bureau has stated that the central county is about domination. Due to the RTP, Wake is not dominant. I do not know what else to say. The Bureau has ruled.
More completely distorted and untrue views coming through that Charlotte lens.
People in the Triangle, defined for about 70 years as only 3 counties Wake, Durham, and Orange don't sit around and talk or think about how big the population is, only the handful of us on this forum delve in that minutia.
The same demographers who split Raleigh and Durham apart also dictated which counties are included for each. They are in Washington, not the Triangle. And Raleigh probably could have annexed a buttload more square miles like Charlotte did to get bigger numbers if it cared about that stuff.
But it's the distinguished and nationally celebrated Capital of one of America's most highly regarded states. Since 1993 or 1994' Best Place to live in America honor, Raleigh likely has ranked on more best of lists than any other city in the nation except for a few in Florida, Texas, or say Madison Wisconsin. The focus in the Triangle is educated workforce, innovation, and quality for amenities and quality of life, not skyscrapers or anything tied to big city environments. Quality over Quantity. To Be Rather than to Seem, the state motto, really does resonate in the Triangle.
The state has its big city and one is enough. Raleigh folks opine for the beach all week and view that as their paradise, and that's NC beaches, SC is too far and not a consideration.
Raleigh is not wanting to be a big city, nor do they want or think about Charlotte at all unless they go often or have family there. Raleigh doesn't aspire to be anything more than it is today.... A small town feeling capital for the state comprised of hundreds of small towns in every size from 50 people to 900,000 people.
If you think you can hold an argument about Raleigh/Cary being its own separate entity for purposes of thinking Charlotte is so much in a different league, go ahead, but it looks foolish.
In fact Charlotte is more guilty of what you accuse the Raleigh folks of with the Charlotte USA branding campaign that counted 14 or more counties in both states as the Charlotte metro. One ring of counties around the central county is fine, but that campaign was going deep into SC and we all know that Wake and Mecklenburg border counties should be included but beyond that it gets more and more subjective and immature.
Will there ever be a day when Charlotte is big enough and people can just relax and enjoy life without trying to prove to the bigger and smaller regional metros that it is the biggest and most cosmopolitan town?
Charlotte will be very big eventuallly because it already looks like a city of 5 million or more. That skyline is what people remember and not so much Raleigh in that sense, so sit back, it will happen regardless.
Last edited by architect77; 08-18-2021 at 05:33 PM..
If you had read my comments, you would know that I don't care that Wake is more populous. It is about the metro population that is important. But what is important is for you guys to get the facts straight. You guys are quick to tell us how smart you are in the Raleigh area, yet you have trouble comprehending some basic concepts with population.
The truth is that I do get tired of the deception coming out of Raleigh and the arrogance. Then, you guys have your cheerleading exercise that would be still be going on had I not broke it up with a few questions. Your comments were like blood sucking vultures. With each post, the comments got more grandiose. Have you read the cheerleading comments without bias? So, I try to add some sanity to the forum then I am jealous because Wake is more populous than Meck. Give me a break. What do I have to be jealous for? The Charlotte MSA and CSA are more populous. And in case you missed it earlier, the CLT MSA and CSA are adding more people by quite a bit more than your MSA and CSA. So, try again. I only want you guys in Raleigh to tell the truth for a change and drop the arrogance.
By the way, the only thing I said about Wake being more populous than Meck and Fulton is that Wake is much larger in square miles. I think that is the truth. So, I am not sure how that is showing jealousy. I think anyone that comes to this forum or the Raleigh forum and disputes you guys' propaganda will be labeled jealous. It is sad that most of you guys do not know the truth regarding population data. The talking heads in Raleigh have spun the truth so long that you do not know the truth.
Please specifically cite what you mean by the part I put in bold, apart from the unnecessary name calling you're put here. Every post I've put on here has referenced data from the latest census. And for the other posts, I'm not seeing arrogance, bias or propaganda. I am seeing some people in the Triangle happy at the growth, but they're not putting down Charlotte the way you're doing with Raleigh-Durham on here.
So I'd suggest you reconsider your position here. Yes, the Charlotte MSA and CSA are more populous. And yes, the CLT MSA and CSA are adding more people by quite a bit more than your MSA and CSA. But we're adding people too, and there's nothing wrong with acknowledging and celebrating that fact.
What really stands out to me from this census is just how badly Eastern North Carolina is hurting. From I-95 until you get to the coastal counties, the only counties posting positive growth are Camden, which is near the Outer Banks, and Pitt, which is home to Greenville and East Carolina University. And even the growth for both (3.8% and 1.2% respectively) isn't impressive. Concord and Asheville grew so much faster that Greenville got knocked out of the top 10 cities even though it grew 3.5%. Beside Greenville, the only other eastern NC municipality in the top 50 was New Bern, with an impressive 6% growth to 31,291.
Maybe I should amend this to include the northern stretch of I-95 as well as a loser. Northampton, Halifax, Nash and Wilson also shrank considerably these last 10 years.
It's a shifting population. Every county can't be a winner and the economic cornerstones have changed with agriculture (tobacco) giving way to the high tech in the metro areas.
In a state so evenly dispersed with small towns of all sizes this is inevitable.
There's plenty of life and people all along the US70 corridor regardless if there is marked growth. Goldsboro is pretty crowded, lots of big houses are visible from the US70 bypass.
Goldsboro even has an indoor mall (so did Henderson). I got a haircut at Sportsclips by a California mother of 4 who lives with her husband in Jacksonville and she commutes that far!.
Is everyone aware that there another major highway from the coast to the Triangle South of US70?
Is it US220 or something like that? it's US258
i was also shocked to see that NC24 down at Morehead City actually goes all the way to the Charlotte area. Who knew?
Last edited by architect77; 08-18-2021 at 06:10 PM..
Mutiny, I understand what you are saying. I always respect your thoughts and comments. But the Census Bureau cannot make an exception for the Raleigh MSA. They cannot add an asterisk. I have stated throughout this forum that the Census Bureau has a metro designation for metros like Raleigh and that is the CSA. I do not understand why Raleigh does not just acknowledge the MSA quagmire and report it as is while also reporting the CSA. I don't think other regions make the big deal out of it that has been made in Raleigh. I know that Greensboro has complained a bit but nothing like Raleigh. And Greensboro has not used deception like Raleigh. Maybe the Bureau will change it. But the Bureau has stated that the central county is about domination. Due to the RTP, Wake is not dominant. I do not know what else to say. The Bureau has ruled.
Deception? You're really coming off as someone who has no real clue about some of the things you post, and post a lot of dribble to make it seem like you do.
I hope that we agree that MSA counties are not established by nonsense such as shopping connections, restaurant connections, universities, culture and so on. It is decide by one thing and one thing only- commuting data. Now, let's assume the RTP did not exist. Then, what if 25 percent of the commuters from Durham County do not commute into Wake. How would you feel then? Would you still support that the region is one MSA? There is no forgone conclusion that 25 percent of the commuters from Durham would commute into Wake without RTP.
If you agree that it should still be one MSA then what are you basing your decision on? Because the two MSAs are close by and people from the two MSAs co-mingle at shopping, restaurants, and use same airport. The split MSAs in the US are San Jose and San Fran, Riverside and LA, Dayton and Cincy, Baltimore and Washington, Greensboro and W-S, and Raleigh and Durham Chapel Hill. All of these metros except DC/Baltimore have the same situation. The secondary MSA is on the perifery of the metro region. Baltimore/DC is different. Baltimore is a blue collar town and DC is white collar. People in Baltimore do not commute into DC because of cultural and vocational differences.
But the others have their secondary MSA on the perifery of the metro region. I think that is significant. It is not a coincidence that all of the metros listed here have the secondary metro on the perifery. The majority of people in San Jose (40 miles from San Fran) live and work in San Jose. The majority do not even go to San Fran. it is only a small minority that go to San Fran for work or other reasons. San Jose has its own jobs, restaurants, shopping etc. It is not linked to San Fran a great deal. Less than 15 percent commute there. So, San Jose is existing pretty much independent of San Fran. If San Fran did not exist, it would not change the lifestyle of most from San Jose. So, I do not see that San Jose should be part of the San Fran MSA. And the Census Bureau agrees.
If you have ever been to Dayton, it seems like a total different MSA from Cincy. And Riverside, just like San Jose, does not need LA to exist. Most people do not go into LA. I used to frequent ATl years ago and there are plenty of people in the suburbs that do not go into ATL. The same can be said for CLT. There is a reason that the US Census Bureau has set up two classifications for metros. I know that many of you have stated that the Raleigh functions as one metro. but you have not given any proof of that. And I think that Raleigh and Durham and Chapel Hill are culturally different. I don't know that for sure. But that is what I have read. That is what people have told me that have lived there. The cultural difference may not be to the degree of Baltimore/DC but it may be. I believe it is real. But the driving distance is nearly 30 miles. In addition, there is the disassociation attributed to the universities in the area.
Nobody can say for sure if the two MSAs would meet the criteria for one MSA if RTP did not exist. I am tired of talking about this. But I think that there is more to the split than what many are making it out out be. Just because two areas are close by does not mean that they are good candidates or would meet the criteria for one MSA. We can continue to discuss this if you want, but I am not convinced. And I doubt that I will convince anybody. But if anybody has anything further to post then I will respond. In closing, The Raleigh area is an anomaly due to RTP. But all of the split MSAs are an anomaly for one reason or another. the Census Bureau does not seem to think that it is a big enough problem to have corrected the problem in the past. Maybe they will in the future. And if they do then I am okay with that.
Deception? You're really coming off as someone who has no real clue about some of the things you post, and post a lot of dribble to make it seem like you do.
You have no clue buddy. Greensboro is not a bunch of cry babies that are in Raleigh. Do you really think that Greensboro cries about the their split MSAs?
But give me an example of what I have no clue about. I would like to hear. I doubt that you would want to enter into a discussion about what I have no clue. But please tell me. But I know that i will not hear a response back. Just more blowhard, uninformed person from Raleigh blowing off steam because I challenge the propaganda out of Raleigh. I am waiting for your response.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
