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I have lived around Morris Park for almost my entire life and now live on Muliner Avenue right on the border between Pelham Pkwy and Morris Park. Anyway, my question is do you think this area will remain one of those few safe neighborhoods or do you think it will follow the same route? Morris Park, I just can't imagine as a run down ghetto. I think what has been saving it is the fact that most people own their own homes and because it is not close to public transportation. And Pelham Parkway is still pretty good in my opinion. The only area that I see it has really changed in around Bronx Park East. But Lydig still seems pretty good to me. Its mostly hispanic on the blocks like Cruger and Holland, more Albanian around Wallace, Matthews, and Barnes, and further east is Italian and to a lesser extent Jewish. And the north side because of the projects has a larger black and hispanic population. What do people think of this area? Do you think it will remain nice or not?
I've only lived in Pelham Parkway for a little short of two years, but most of the changes I've seen in the area have been positive so far. The Key Food at the corner of Lydig and Holland is expanding, the coffee shop and the pizza shop on Lydig both seem to be doing very well in terms of customers, and while it was kind of a shame to see the retro-looking underwear shop Frishman's go out of business (I never got a chance to check out their "ladies' foundation garments" while it was there), it seems like it took no time at all for a brand new, very nice-looking Verizon to set up shop where they once stood.
However, I gotta ask, does anyone know what's going to happen to that vacant lot where the fire happened back in February of 2008? I seem to recall reading somewhere that a company had finally bought the land, but it doesn't look like anything's been done with it so far.
The "old timers " in my building,some of whom have been living in the neighborhood for over 50 years, tell me that the neighborhood has been improving over the last 5 or 10 years.They say there was a period back in the early to mid 90's when they felt that the neighborhood was declining but that things have improved a lot since then,especially crime and graffiti wise.
As BaReSe points out, there are a lot of ingredients for a stable,attractive neighborhood.In addition to all the private houses there is a very large concentration of pre war cooperative apartment buildings(more owners),lots of good shopping,lots of parks and trees,the zoo,the botanical garden,Fordham U,easy highway access in any direction, an East Side and a West Side subway and the Bx 12.
The only project in the neighborhood,Pelham Parkway Houses,is actually not bad at all.It is considered one of the best projects in the city. It is very clean,lots of trees,well kept grounds and has almost no crime .
There is a group at Columbia working on creating a Pelham Parkway Historic District.
http://www.arch.columbia.edu/hp/2007pelham.html (broken link)
http://www.arch.columbia.edu/hp/studio/2006-2007/pdf/Pelham%20Parkway.pdf (broken link)
The real estate prices are ridiculously low for a neighborhood like this anywhere in the city.
I am in the middle of refinancing my coop because when I bought not that long ago the rate was 6.25% and I have locked in a refinance at 4.5% .The the appraiser just came 2 weeks ago.I was a little afraid that the apartment might have lost value because of the way the market has gone to hell but it actually appraised at almost 10% more than I paid! When she was in my apartment she told me that although it is taking much longer for things to sell (close) the values in the neighborhood never fell over the last year and are actually going up a little now .She also told me that most of the people moving into the neighborhood now are from Manhattan and Brooklyn.
I think these are good signs.
Don't know what is happening with the lot where the fire was but it should be interesting.It is a very prominent spot and it is a very vibrant shopping area.
... The only area that I see it has really changed in around Bronx Park East....
I don't know, BaReSe.What part of Bronx Park East do you think is so bad ? When I was looking to buy an apartment, I looked in a number of buildings on the stretch of Bronx Park East and Boston Road where they come together, sort of between Lydig and Pelham Parkway South.Most of the buildings on that stretch are pre war,art deco co-op buildings with nice big apartments overlooking the park.They all seemed to have high maintenances so I didn't buy there but they seemed like nice buildings to me.And the stretch Of Bronx Park East that is North of the Parkway, around Reiss Place and Thwaites Place is actually even better.Again,almost all coop buildings on the park.
Maybe you mean the part of Bronx Park East further South of these areas down near the Bronx Park East stop on the 2 ?
I mean that part of Bronx Park East by the train stop on the 2. Like Birchall and the streets around there. I would say that 5-10 years ago it was still pretty much Italians, Albanians taking it over, older jewish people. But since then, its become all Latino and its gotten run down looking. To many low income people moving in there. But Pelham Parkway is a real unusual neighborhood. I've seen people from Manhattan who moved up here for cheaper rents. I like living here, I'm just worried that it'll become a place for displaced low income people rather than a middle class neighborhood which it has historically been. I mean the city sets the Bronx up as the place to stick all the poor residents. But the Pelham Parkway houses aren't bad at all. Anyway, Bronx Park East by the train stop is changing and also Allerton Avenue by the 2 train stop isn't looking so great anymore. And the demographics around Allerton, I don't know anymore, I haven't been there in awhile. But I'm sure its changed and changed for the worse.
I agree with you about down there but I don't even consider it part of the Pelham Parkway/Morris Park area.It doesn't look great but I haven't been here long enough to compare it to years ago.
Also agree with up around Allerton but don't mind there as much.Both of those neighborhoods are pretty far from Pelham Parkway though.
The thing about the real Pelham Parkway area is that so many of the buildings are coop and condo and even that so many of the rental buildings are great buildings with great apartments.Lots of the buildings on Cruger,Barnes,Wallace,Brady,Matthews,etc and north of the Parkway on Barker, Olinville, Reiss,Thwaites,Waring and Bronx Park East are coops and condos. The areas south of Bronxdale Ave and North of Allerton don't have that going for them.
As you pointed out in your original post,ownership in any neighborhood is a big stabilizing factor.
I have lived around Morris Park for almost my entire life and now live on Muliner Avenue right on the border between Pelham Pkwy and Morris Park. Anyway, my question is do you think this area will remain one of those few safe neighborhoods or do you think it will follow the same route? Morris Park, I just can't imagine as a run down ghetto. I think what has been saving it is the fact that most people own their own homes and because it is not close to public transportation. And Pelham Parkway is still pretty good in my opinion. The only area that I see it has really changed in around Bronx Park East. But Lydig still seems pretty good to me. Its mostly hispanic on the blocks like Cruger and Holland, more Albanian around Wallace, Matthews, and Barnes, and further east is Italian and to a lesser extent Jewish. And the north side because of the projects has a larger black and hispanic population. What do people think of this area? Do you think it will remain nice or not?
I think most of the the declines in neighborhoods happened in the 60s-70s (white flight)... I haven't really heard of a neighborhood getting WORSE after 1990. Or are there some exceptions?
& just because hispanics move to an area, it doesn't mean it will get bad. My neighborhood is a great example of this, in the 80s (when it's population was mostly puerto rican) many more crimes were being committed. When the mexicans started moving in and the puerto ricans out, crime has gone down a LOT since those days.
Neighborhoods that have been declining since 1990 in the Bronx:
Wakefield
Williamsbridge
Co-Op city
Norwood
Bedford Park
Westchester Square
Allerton
Pelham Parkway
And whenever waves of "those" people move in a neighborhoods quality of life drops significantly. The thing that I worry is that the middle class will leave the neighborhood and people relocating from other areas in the Bronx will come and ruin it. And referring to what Andez said, the Bronx was going through its worst times during the 70's and 80's. Again that time was when "other" people began overruning once good neighborhoods.
Bluedog, Morris Park is still the best area in the Bronx though. Again, its far away from public transportation which means you need a car. Needing a car= needing more money = better job = better education = better class of people. Only thing is that banking and shopping aren't as good as the retail strips along Pelham Parkway.
BaReSe,I think you put too much emphasis on color in your definition of " middle class".Most of the neighborhoods you list are still very much middle class,they are just no longer 90% white middle class.There is no evidence that these neighborhoods are "declining" at all, just getting less white and more black and hispanic ,which might be a good thing.90% anything neighborhoods don't do anyone any good in this day and age.
And I don't think cars or distance from public transportation = better class of people or anything else other than inconvenience.
I believe the 80 year olds in my neighborhood who have been living here for 50 years and think the neighborhood is actually better than it was 10 to 20 years ago.
The reality is that a lot of these neighborhoods may be getting more middle class.They used to be more blue collar and working class.In the 1970's my building(and this neighborhood) had a lot of garment workers and now it has a lot of teachers.Pelham Parkway was referred to as being populated by "the 7th Avenue gang" because the #2 SEVENTH AVENUE train took them to their jobs in the garment industry on SEVENTH AVENUE.Morris Park was probably filled with plumbers, electricians and low to mid level mafia operatives.Now it is populated with the kids of the plumbers, electricians and low to mid level mafia operatives who are teachers ,lawyers and accountants. Which is more middle class?
What evidence do you have that living standards have declined in neighborhoods where incomes, property values and the % of residents with college degrees and advanced degrees continues to rise and crime rates continue to fall ?
Not sure Morris Park is the best area of The Bronx either.It is nice but there are and always have been better areas like Riverdale,Woodlawn,Pelham Gardens,Indian Village and Country Club.
Last edited by bluedog2; 06-15-2009 at 10:59 PM..
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