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The MI economy is bad and having a degree is no guarantee that you can get a job today. Companies such as Syntel are part of the problem. They're allowing companies to outsource what used to be very high paying jobs. Those companies not outsourcing have found that they can import labor from countries such as India via the H1B visa program. There are Americans to fill these type of jobs. If there weren't, what used to happen is that wages would rise and there would be incentives for students to pursue that field of study. That isn't happening now because corporations have found an endless supply of cheap labor from overseas. What incentive is there for a university student to spend $50K+ on a degree only to find that they can't get a job?
If there is truly a need for very specialized workers that can only be fulfilled from overseas -- then put a minimum salary on these jobs of at least $200K. Corporations used to have to train employees for specialized skills rather than just order them up from the H1B visa menu. The dirty little secret is that there are very few jobs of this nature and companies are just using this program to drive down wages.
Many companies have outsourced most of their HR departments now. They use Indian contracting companies to hire contractors rather than full-time employees. The contracting firm gets 20-50% of the contractor's pay and the contractor gets no benefits. The company saves a ton of money, the contracting firm makes a ton of money -- it's good for everybody but the poor guy doing the work. If you haven't been exposed to this yet -- you probably haven't looked for work recently or have been very lucky.
It's hard to predict what jobs may be immune to this outsourcing. The only good news I see for Michigan is demographics. The population is aging and a lot of current workers will be retiring soon. This should open up jobs if the companies are still around fill them.
We need a diverse economy consisting of jobs for university graduates and the common person. Variety. Not everyone wants to spend 4-8 years of their life going to college. Not all blue collar workers turn screws, that's the most ignorant thing I've heard, and it usually comes from the so called educated people. Show some respect. There's a lot of hard workers out there of all education levels, that just want to feed themselves and their kids.
Hopefully some people on here could help me make a decision. I am moving to the Flint, MI area in July to be an Air Force recruiter there (people so they don't have jobs, well I have jobs for everyone...but that is a different story haha). I am in a predicament on whether to buy a house or what. I'm only 22 and am very financially stable for my age and after living in one apartment (besides Air Force dorm rooms) I must say I don't ever want to live in one again. Seeing that decent two bedroom apartments in Grand Blanc or Swartz Creek with a single car garage are about $750 a month and some charge extra for the garage. It seems to me like buying a house would be a good decision to a point because they are cheaper now than ever and it would be better living conditions for slightly more money--also I would be owning something instead of throwing money into nothing. The major issue at hand is that I will only be in the area for 4 years with a possibility to extend for one extra year there. I know the economy is terrible and from what I hear Michigan economy (with Flint area being a major) is even worse off than the rest of the USA. Yes I know the economy will rebound, but I just wonder if I will be able to sell the house in the 4-5 years and on top of that will I even have equity and make a little something off of it. I would love to get a German Shepherd up there and not have to worry about apartment rip-offs screwing me over with all types of fees and deposits...including the extra monthly fee for having a pet.
For people in this area and anyone that knows anything about the market etc. that could chime in and help me it would be a lot of help.
I've spoke with some Realtors and even a mortgage company and they seem kinda against the idea of buying since I would have to turn the house around in such a short period of time. I guess I could try renting it out if I couldn't sell it, but if people are leaving the area more than they are coming in then there may not be anyone looking to rent either.
Well I have considered it, but haven't found a good website online consisting of a listing of rental homes. The few I have found seem to be ugly and cruddy looking, but the person still wants like $900 a month for it and that simply is not going to happen. Renting a house still is almost like renting an apartment...money down the drain and typically if you rent a house it is a bit more money than renting an apartment.
I guess if I could find a nice duplex...or as Michigan calls them "condo" or "townhouse" that would be nice. Basically one person next door and that is it...with a two car garage.
Well I have considered it, but haven't found a good website online consisting of a listing of rental homes. The few I have found seem to be ugly and cruddy looking, but the person still wants like $900 a month for it and that simply is not going to happen. Renting a house still is almost like renting an apartment...money down the drain and typically if you rent a house it is a bit more money than renting an apartment.
I guess if I could find a nice duplex...or as Michigan calls them "condo" or "townhouse" that would be nice. Basically one person next door and that is it...with a two car garage.
Jared
I would be very cautious about buying. I live in Ohio in a pretty economically depressed region. I bought my first home at 22, so i think my story will be helpful to you.
When i bought my home i thought renting was throwing your money away. Now after having bought my house and lived in it for 6 years i realize that maintenance, plus utilities, yardwork, interest,taxes etc. can really add up. Most of your monthly payment is going to go to interest, which in 4 years you will never recoup.
After having my house for 5 years, the company i worked for filed for bankruptcy and i decided to sell the place. Well, that took almost a year, and after paying closing costs i barely got my down payment back (this is after putting probably a good 20k or more into the house.)
So, you might just be better off spending $700 or so a month for a townhouse or rental w/low utilities. Trust me, it is actually cheaper to rent. If you are only staying for 4 years you'll never get your money back, especially in a place where people are moving from, not to.
Just my experience.
Cort
BTW, local newspapers usually have the best house rentals.
I would be very cautious about buying. I live in Ohio in a pretty economically depressed region. I bought my first home at 22, so i think my story will be helpful to you.
When i bought my home i thought renting was throwing your money away. Now after having bought my house and lived in it for 6 years i realize that maintenance, plus utilities, yardwork, interest,taxes etc. can really add up. Most of your monthly payment is going to go to interest, which in 4 years you will never recoup.
After having my house for 5 years, the company i worked for filed for bankruptcy and i decided to sell the place. Well, that took almost a year, and after paying closing costs i barely got my down payment back (this is after putting probably a good 20k or more into the house.)
So, you might just be better off spending $700 or so a month for a townhouse or rental w/low utilities. Trust me, it is actually cheaper to rent. If you are only staying for 4 years you'll never get your money back, especially in a place where people are moving from, not to.
Just my experience.
Cort
BTW, local newspapers usually have the best house rentals.
Thank you for your story--it does shed some light on things quite a bit actually. Honestly a 2 bedroom condo type deal with 1.5 baths would be great. Kinda like an apartment, but without all the neighbors and something that will be like a house with a garage, except you have one close next door neighbor. If I could get one of those for like $700 a month that would be perfect. I'm not living in that area yet so it is hard for me to get papers or what not. I'll have to see if I can get my hands on one.
We need a diverse economy consisting of jobs for university graduates and the common person. Variety. Not everyone wants to spend 4-8 years of their life going to college. Not all blue collar workers turn screws, that's the most ignorant thing I've heard, and it usually comes from the so called educated people. Show some respect. There's a lot of hard workers out there of all education levels, that just want to feed themselves and their kids.
I agree with this post. I grew up in a working class neighborhood and respect the people who are willing to get their hands dirty. I know they worked hard and I have nothing but respect for them. Unfortunately, those jobs just aren't here anymore, and I don't have any better advice than some kind of specialized training for unemployed blue collar workers. I agree with the posts about our need to look at economic policies, I support that, but we also need to face the current reality. To be marketable a person needs a skill that sets them apart from the crowd of applicants.
This post is so xenophobic and Michitucky that's it's laughable. Like I said, back away from your baseball bats, people, and start these companies yourselves then. You think the Desai's of the world are preventing an "American" from starting a similar company - stealing what's rightfully yours? Then start a company if it's so easy and put him out of business.
My point was that America would have been fine without Mr. Desai. He isn't a unique asset that America couldn't produce on its own.
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BTW, out of the over 12,000 jobs at Syntel, the overwhelming majority are filled by US citizens - it just looks bad b/c the jobs requiring some analytical/tech skills are filled by foreigners who did their multiplication tables instead of playing Wii and watching Sportscenter all day. People like Desai are making the pie bigger and giving thousands of Americans jobs, yet you concentrate on the small minority of foreigners in his company? This is classic Michitucky short-sightedness and playing the blame game.
The jobs that are being held by the visa holders are often those very knowledge-based jobs that Americans are supposed to "retrain" and "reeducate" for. At a time when our nation's unemployment and underemployment numbers are increasing and when college graduates are having difficulty finding jobs commensurate with their skills, abilities, and training, we don't need H-1B and L-1 visa holders. How is giving good jobs to foreigners in Americans' rational selfish economic interest? (If you can provide a convincing explanation as to why global labor arbitrage is good for Americans you should send it to the politicians and pundits because they'll shout it from the rooftops.)
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You're delusional if you think the American workforce is trained and ready for these 21st century jobs but they're being underbid by inferior, but cheaper, foreign workers.
I'm a believer in the profit motive. If being "trained and ready for these 21st century jobs" were truly profitable then Americans would prepare for them, just like they do for medical school.
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In my experience, companies go out of their way to get US citizens for these jobs.
Perhaps you missed the flap about how a law firm was advising companies how they could avoid hiring Americans?
Just what exactly is "your experience" in this area, anyway? I don't claim to have any experience, just what I read in the newspapers and my application of basic economic principles. (It makes economic sense that businesses would prefer to hire cheaper foreign labor if they can.)
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I'm not talking about the highly-publicized tech support jobs that are getting shipped out to India either. You know how difficult and expensive it is to get visas in this post-9/11 era? These are relatively high paying jobs. The vast majority of the foreigners I know who are working here legally got their job because no American filled it, or they were the best qualified, not b/c they agreed to get paid less.
How do you know that? Even if skimming the top 1% of the labor pool from other countries provided us with the best qualified employees, why is having them work those jobs still better for Americans? If we took that to an extreme, the bottom 97% of Americans would end up being unemployed since our nation would be employing the top 3% of foreigners worldwide.
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And, yes, there is a stereotype that these foreigners will work harder and more honestly than an American...
In other words--they'll either work for lower wages or provide more work for the same wages (which is essentially the same thing).
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...but the jobs are there for the taking by citizens for the visa reasons I mentioned. Nope, we're basically raising entitled, lazy, immoral kids for the most part who are getting their Wii asses handed to them by motivated foreigners coming here for a better life - just like your ancestors except educated and not just country bumpkins fleeing a potato famine.
Sure...people from third world countries will be willing to work harder for less money because they are more desperate. Why is it in Americans' rational selfish economic interests to try to live like people do in third world countries and to decrease their economic well being to third world levels?
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Keep drinking the kool-aid and believing that your average American is competitive in the world today but the government and companies are trying to squeeze them out.
I think Americans are motivated by the profit motive and that they'll become competitive if that's what's required and if doing so is worthwhile. (See the medical school example.)
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What it comes down to is that companies will not pay some ignoramus $80k a year to have his friend punch him in while he goes fishing. Imagine the audacity of that! A company that expects their employees to work for their money!
I get the sense that you've constructed a strawman of the lazy American with a sense of entitlement so that you can knock it down and justify the altruism of global labor arbitrage. Maybe we should end tenure at our universities (talk about privilege) and allow foreign professors (and the hordes of underemployed American Ph.D.'s) to compete for academic positions. Perhaps then our nation's academics might learn about real-world economics first-hand.
It's real easy to understand. Let me help you. When you increase the supply of labor almost infinitely relative to the demand for labor, the price point--wages, must decrease. The world is filled with billions of impoverished people, many of whom speak English and as the costs of obtaining college education decrease more and more of them are becoming college educated (India, China, Eastern Europe). However, the demand for college-educated labor has barely increased relative to the supply of that labor, hence the decrease in wages that would come about from having a truly open market. Blue collar workers have suffered the brunt of global labor arbitrage for years and now white collar workers will suffer it. (I've seen those blue collar types mention that they don't have any sympathy for displaced white collar workers since the educated class had none for them; it makes sense (albeit short-sighted) and is an act of justice for them to feel that way.)
We're going to need to first acknowledge and then address the reality of the economic phenomenon that is global labor arbitrage if we are to remain a middle class society and not merge our economy and standard of living with the impoverished masses of the third world even if that means being selfish and giving up our morality of altruism. "Americans first" needs to become our economic mantra.
Last edited by Bhaalspawn; 05-13-2008 at 11:36 PM..
Do you know anything about the high tech industry?
Compaines in Seattle and Silicon Valley fall on top of themselves looking for domestic labor. They offer benefits and perks you can't imagine. But if you need someone who with specific skills, like someone who can design Serializer/Deserializer blocks for a programmable logic device, chances are you won't find a native-born American even if you offer $200k a year. India simply graduates a lot more EEs than the US, many at American universities. Americans choose to study other topics, and you don't see many Indians studying poli sci.
H1-Bs need to be expanded, because the reality is much of this work will be done by Indians, whether it's done physically in the U.S., or in Bangalore. Better that they spend their money in America.
How do you know all of this? That's what the businesses, pundits, and politicians want you to believe. They are falling all over themselves to spread that propaganda. If you think that Americans are not motivated by the profit motive and wouldn't train to take lucrative jobs even if that meant learning math and engineering, then how do you explain the horde of Americans who want to become MDs?
If someone could offer me a contract with liquidated damages provisions where I would be guaranteed to receive a $200,000/year job with job security if I obtain a master's degree in an engineering field then I'd go do it. I bet that angry, unemployed and underemployed American Ph.D. scientists could retrain for those positions if, in reality, we had a real need. I'm sure it would beat driving taxis or working as underpaid gypsy scientist postdocs.
For another point of view, I suggest reading some of Cal Tech computer science professor Norman Matloff's writings:
Nope, you missed my entire point. The bulk of the complainers on here are uneducated workers saying there are no jobs. Ergo, why bother going into debt getting trained to have no job waiting for you? You see how erroneous, defeatist and pathetic this is? The worst part is that this mentality gets transferred to their kids, producing another generation of anti-education, entitled workers.
For the record, I have a Bachelor's degree, a Master's degree, and a Jurisdoctorate. However, one's education does not make one's arguments true or false.
There is abundant anecdotal evidence that a great many college graduates cannot find jobs in their fields and end up working jobs that do not make any use of their college education. This has been discussed in the science field for years. A recent NPR clip delves into this albeit rather superficially:
Also, be sure to read the excellent essay, Contemporary Problems in Science Jobs:
Problems in Science Jobs (http://www.his.com/%7Egraeme/cpsj.html - broken link)
Why won't you answer the question I posed earlier? If we double the number of college graduates will the number of jobs for those graduates at prevailing wages also double? Is the number of jobs that require a college-education infinite? Will the number of college-education-requiring jobs increase elastically to accommodate all of our nation's newly-trained college graduates?
This issue--this issue of whether investing huge amounts of time and money in college education makes economic sense is important and pressing and you just unqualifiedly dismiss it. A simple application of basic economics principles tells us that increasing the number of college graduates will not in-and-of-itself increase the demand for those graduates at currently prevailing wages.
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My point is that there are plenty of jos, just not turning screws. The bottom line is that there are some people in untenable situations despite their best effots, but I find it difficult to believe that the vast majority of people out there totally got screwed by everyone else. Can it be we don't measure up to the foreign workforce where it matters in the 21st century?
It's not that Americans "don't measure up". The problem is that it's very difficult to compete against relatively impoverished labor that is willing to work hard for very low wages in countries where businesses don't need to worry about high taxes, the costs of workplace safety, laws against discrimination, health care benefits, and environmental regulations, etc.
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Where's the personal responsibility that America was famous for? The ability to pull yourself up by your bootstraps? If you can't make something out of yourself in the US, where else will you make a better life for yourself? Russia? France? Please, tell me where else people can go and get ahead so easily. Sorry, still don't feel sorry for the majority of the complainers. The decline of US manufacturing was not an overnight phenomenon. You reap what you sow and most of these complainers sowed it ditching classes in high school.
<Sigh>. You just don't have any concept of what global labor arbitrage is. Perhaps you could benefit from stepping out of the Ivory Tower to learn about real-world economics. (In the real world, jobs at wages commensurate with ability, experience, training, knowledge, and merit don't magically materialize to match the number of people who need those jobs.)
For some alternative viewpoints, I suggest reading Paul Craig Roberts' excellent op-eds on some of these subjects. You can find a list of links here:
(Link to be added once Yuku.com comes back up.)
Last edited by Bhaalspawn; 05-13-2008 at 11:42 PM..
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BTW, out of the over 12,000 jobs at Syntel, the overwhelming majority are filled by US citizens - it just looks bad b/c the jobs requiring some analytical/tech skills are filled by foreigners who did their multiplication tables instead of playing Wii and watching Sportscenter all day. People like Desai are making the pie bigger and giving thousands of Americans jobs, yet you concentrate on the small minority of foreigners in his company? 
