Why is Maine a poor state? (Millinocket, Madawaska: middle-class, lease, loans)

[Maineac]

Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man

I'm running for school board. I stopped by the food pantry today to donate some fresh fruit and to get nominating signatures. School boards here are non-partisan so any voter in town could sign. It was crowded. People who have never been to food cupboards before need to use them now. The percentage of the national population that is actually employed is the lowest it has been since 1952. In Maine it is lower than the national average. Jobs are hard to find unless you make your own job and are self employed. Even then, the time between paydays is long. On the other side of the line there are lots of opportunities, but we can't use those opportunities.

The population of our town is 845. The population of the next town to us is zero. Same climate; same terrain; lakes; streams; woods; some roads: No people. Why is that? Government doesn't want people to live there. I know a man who lives a few towns over. He said he was going to live there. LURC told him he could not. He fought them in court for over two years. He spent a pile of money and he lives year round in his log home in LURC territory. If you want to live under a magnifying glass and spend a pile of money fighting to live your dream you can sometimes win the battle, but the war will not be over. They don't want you there and they will pick away and nag you. They will fine you for every little infraction they can dream up. Most people give up and leave. Then it's high fives all around for the bureaucrats. They won another one for their team.

Maine is dead last in the 50 states as a place to start a business. The old LURC and its successor, LUPC are part of that reason. All that truth written, there are still some small pockets of freedom in Maine. You just need to know where to look.

"Truth" and "high fives". I always get a chuckle when I read your posts.

[lrmsd]

Originally Posted by maineboy51

One challenge to the Maine economy is, ironically, what also makes Maine special and unique: we are at the end of the line. Maine is the only state in the lower 48 that is bordered only by one other US state. This means that shipping costs and travel times are generally higher. It's no accident that the southern part of the state is where better jobs are: it's closer to the rest of the country.

I live in York County, which some people call "Maine-achusetts." The economy is strong here and many people in my town actually work in New Hampshire or even northern Massachusetts.

Another thing that holds much of Maine back is the transportation infrastructure. There is really only one major interstate (well, I suppose one and a half if you count 295) here and many towns in western and northern Maine are several hours over old, frost-heave-ridden roads away from it. There is passenger train service only into southernmost Maine, so you really need a car to get around most of the state.

Also, the harsh weather is a factor. Agriculture is a real challenge here due to the short cold growing season, and it costs more to heat buildings and maintain the roads through our long, rough winters. Equipment that is outdoors in Maine costs more to maintain than in a warmer, sunnier climate.

And then there is national politics. Having a small population, we don't always have the clout that more populous states do. And the Cold War, which once made Maine a strategic spot due to its proximity to Europe, is over. Maine used to have several military bases which are now closed: Loring AFB in Limestone; Dow AFB in Bangor, and Winter Harbor Naval Base in Winter Harbor. And soon, Brunswick Naval Air Station will be closing down, with most of its personnel being sent down south. None of this has been helpful to the local economies. Portsmouth Naval Shipyard (which is in Kittery, Maine) recently came close to being closed, too, but PNS' reputation for better work at lower costs preserved it, at least for now.

You see, despite all of the foregoing, one thing Maine has going for it is... Mainers. We have a reputation for hard work and getting it done right. Life here has never been easy, and it has made us into one tough old breed...

Isn't ME bordered by two states: VT and NH???

[AustinB]

Originally Posted by lrmsd

Isn't ME bordered by two states: VT and NH???

Not quite. Check that atlas again.

[mainebrokerman]

Originally Posted by lrmsd

Isn't ME bordered by two states: VT and NH???

maine is the only state bordered by just one other- n.h.

[tkx7]

Maine is advanced and educated yet at the same time is has many backwood areas that are poor and uneducated. Maine has a huge welfare state and high tax rates on locals. Most of the people that have 2nd homes in Maine declare residency elsewhere to avoid paying any income tax in Maine so it puts all the burden on the actual full time Mainers. what Maine needs to do is have a flat income tax or no income tax to attract more people to live here year round so more money gets pumped into the economy and the full time Mainers aren't having to pay ridiculous income tax rates.

[Submariner]

tkx7 - You have made a series of generalizations. It is possible, that in your mind, you think that these are actually true.

... Maine is advanced and educated yet at the same time is has many backwood areas that are poor and uneducated.

Are you saying that you think the educated are only allowed into specific regions of Maine?

... Maine has a huge welfare state and high tax rates on locals.

Surely you know that not all of Maine has high taxes. Right?

... Most of the people that have 2nd homes in Maine declare residency elsewhere to avoid paying any income tax in Maine so it puts all the burden on the actual full time Mainers

Do you have anything to support this idea?

In my little township over half of the properties are owned by non-residents. After all Maine is all about the great outdoors and going-to-camp.

What I see as 'camps' or secondary properties are not capable of full-time living. Not because of taxes, but because they are camps.

... what Maine needs to do is have a flat income tax or no income tax to attract more people to live here year round so more money gets pumped into the economy and the full time Mainers aren't having to pay ridiculous income tax rates.

Everyone has their own idea of what Maine needs.

Many of us do not pay income taxes. What I see are a lot of retirees [like myself] who have moved to Maine, because it is a wonderful place to live. This includes the forests, rivers, lakes, ponds, wildlife, and the low cost-of-living.

[tkx7]

Of course I am going to make generalizations because we are talking about a very broad and open-ended discussion. He asked a question of why Maine was poor and I offered some theories. Maine is the highest percentage of second homes in the US- that is a fact. Yes a lot of these are vacation homes. However, many people could conceiveably declare residency in Maine but don't. Maine also has the oldest mean population filled with retirees who obviously aren't contributing to income tax. Maine's highest tax bracket is 8% (which is everyone making over 20K a year, or 40K a year with dependents). NH has 0%, Mass flat rate is 5.25%, Florida is 0%... see the trend? If you had a second home or spent about 50% of the time in these states you'd want to declare residency elsewhere. That drives up the tax brackets for actual Mainers who live in the state year round. It puts a large tax burden on the middle class, working Mainers who aren't rich enough to have two homes or aren't retired yet.

I generalized about tax rates too- that is also just a fact when you factor all the forms of taxation. Yes some property taxes are lower than other towns. Education does need reform in Maine and there are plenty of great schools in Maine but also some terrible ones.

Your final paragraph just about summed it up- Yes Maine is a great place to retire or grow up (like myself). However, I had to move away to get a better job after college with more opportunities and less taxes. I imagine I will retire there one day as well but you have to consider all the taxpayers who pay more than they get in return.

[Northern Maine Land Man]

"maine is the only state bordered by just one other- n.h."

And two nations; Quebec and New Brunswick. Doubt that? Just ask them.

[seniorblues]

Originally Posted by tkx7

Maine also has the oldest mean population filled with retirees who obviously aren't contributing to income tax.

We're planning on retiring and moving to Maine full time this Spring . . . and will be paying income tax. SS is taxable, as are SEP IRA distributions, which I've been making contributions to for over forty years. They're tax deferred . . . . now we pay the piper.

[cebdark]

Originally Posted by tkx7

Of course I am going to make generalizations because we are talking about a very broad and open-ended discussion. He asked a question of why Maine was poor and I offered some theories. Maine is the highest percentage of second homes in the US- that is a fact. Yes a lot of these are vacation homes. However, many people could conceiveably declare residency in Maine but don't. Maine also has the oldest mean population filled with retirees who obviously aren't contributing to income tax. Maine's highest tax bracket is 8% (which is everyone making over 20K a year, or 40K a year with dependents). NH has 0%, Mass flat rate is 5.25%, Florida is 0%... see the trend? If you had a second home or spent about 50% of the time in these states you'd want to declare residency elsewhere. That drives up the tax brackets for actual Mainers who live in the state year round. It puts a large tax burden on the middle class, working Mainers who aren't rich enough to have two homes or aren't retired yet.

I generalized about tax rates too- that is also just a fact when you factor all the forms of taxation. Yes some property taxes are lower than other towns. Education does need reform in Maine and there are plenty of great schools in Maine but also some terrible ones.

Your final paragraph just about summed it up- Yes Maine is a great place to retire or grow up (like myself). However, I had to move away to get a better job after college with more opportunities and less taxes. I imagine I will retire there one day as well but you have to consider all the taxpayers who pay more than they get in return.

I do agree with many of your points except for "backwoods" and "uneducated."

"Poor?" Absolutely. That's not exclusive to backwoods though. If by "uneducated" you mean unable to afford an arm and three legs for college tuition only to get out and work at a minimum (or slightly above minimum) wage job, then yes - absolutely. Maybe it's in the semantics. I know some pretty well-educated in the "school of life" people who have done pretty well for themselves with ingenuity vs. formal education.

But, that said, I think we are pretty foolish in some of our priorities. We insist upon the best educational opportunities for our kids (and by "best" I mean often rather ridiculous in terms of the latest educational fad pedagogy that's woefully (IMHO) overpriced) only to wave goodbye to them as they leave to make money elsewhere because there's nowhere here for them to work.

Healthcare is one of the last vestiges of decent paying jobs with benefits. That's because a lot of people on a fixed income (retirees for example who naturally need more healthcare as they age) are buying real estate up here for next to nothing for sure. That drives the need for services. It's a double-edge sword though. Technology is replacing a lot of lower-level administrative jobs, and there are only so many people who are capable and willing to become nurses, PAs, or other allied healthcare people.

And I totally agree with you on the ones who own summer property up here, but claim residency in FL where it's cheaper. I've known countless number of retirees over the years who live up here from the beginning of April until 10 minutes from the cut-off date where they can get into trouble for residency issues. Others I've known just fudge it anyway and haven't gotten caught.

It is what it is.