How would YOU resolve LA's homeless problem? (Los Angeles: low income, income)

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by Texamichiforniasota

1. New State Hospitals opened and those with mental illness that can't take care of themselves and secure shelter (either because they don't have the level of functioning to secure it or because their behavior is such that no landlord will rent to them) are committed long term.

Did you bother reading the definition of what it is required to commit someone to a mental hospital against their will? If not, here it is again for you: "When a person, as a result of a mental health disorder, is a danger to others, or to himself or herself, or gravely disabled"

Originally Posted by Texamichiforniasota

2. Drug use in public spaces is punishable by sentencing to a residential treatment program. If you can function, hold a job, and keep a roof over your head, then this won't apply to you, but if you end up on the street, you'll be shipped off to rehab.

Let me get this straight, if you have a job then you can do drugs in public otherwise you are sent off to rehab? Ok..so what about the drunks, there are more of them than there are drug addicts, should we make drinking in public a crime too? So maybe if you are having a beer at a restaurant outdoor patio you would have to prove your employment and residence address or off to rehab you would go? Or, maybe you think drunks don't need rehab, just drug addicts

Originally Posted by Texamichiforniasota

3. Regular ICE sweeps of homeless encampments. You can come here illegally and work, but if you can't keep a roof over your head, you are deported. The US used to ban those that were a public burden from immigrating, which is a reasonable rule.

Explain how this would work please. Wouldn't we have to institute a law requiring everyone to carry proof of citizenship first, or do you think that when approached by ICE illegals will simply 'self deport' lol.

You are reducing a very complex problem to a formula that is not only unworkable but illegal.

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by echoParkDate

Unfortunately this can create huge problems. I know of a family in Frogtown that gave food, clothing etc to their drug-addicted son living in the LA river. Unfortunately this guy was a one-man crime wave, stealing from houses in the area and basically terrorizing the neighborhood.
Had they not been helping him out, the guy would probably have been more likely to get into some kind of treatment

I agree and that's one reason I mentioned it but what do you do? Pass a law that you can't feed or give money to the homeless? Forbid them from talking to their family members? As far as I can tell the only way we dig ourselves out of this mess is to provide supportive housing for the homeless and that won't be cheap or easy.

[Mike121]

Originally Posted by echoParkDate

Unfortunately this can create huge problems. I know of a family in Frogtown that gave food, clothing etc to their drug-addicted son living in the LA river. Unfortunately this guy was a one-man crime wave, stealing from houses in the area and basically terrorizing the neighborhood.

Had they not been helping him out, the guy would probably have been more likely to get into some kind of treatment

Well a family member of mine is often homeless. He's definitely mentally ill, but, not dangerous. I've tried many different methods of helping over the years, but, the problem is too big for me. If he stays with me, he steals from me to buy drugs, so he's not welcome in my house any more.

I just want you to know that when you say "the guy would probably have been more likely to get into some kind of treatment", you don't realize just how little there is out there. Any treatment available is really just for rich people or people in jail. There is the good work provided by the Christian ministries, but, they are just a drop in the bucket. And the County has some programs, but, getting into one is like winning the lottery.

So you really need to fight to get into these programs, and fighting is just beyond the capabilities of many homeless.

For this family member of mine, he has always done best in prison where treatment is forced. Usually for a year or so after getting out of prison, he does great, but, with no real support on the outside, he eventually stops taking meds or ends up back on drugs.

You may blame me for not doing more, but, this has gone on for decades, and it has ruined me emotionally. I just can't any more.

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by Mike121

Well a family member of mine is often homeless. He's definitely mentally ill, but, not dangerous. Any treatment available is really just for rich people or people in jail. There is the good work provided by the Christian ministries, but, they are just a drop in the bucket. And the County has some programs, but, getting into one is like winning the lottery.

So you really need to fight to get into these programs, and fighting is just beyond the capabilities of many homeless.

Yep, you nailed it. I'm sorry you have to go through this, but it's quite common, and most people simply don't get it unless they have a homeless relative or have worked with the homeless. The mentally ill homeless who are able to receive treatment usually fail because their is no one available to monitor their meds or provide them with refills. The only solution for that contingent is to offer them supportive housing with staff onsite who can assist them with their meds or other needs.

[Tulemutt]

Homelessness has always existed and will continue to exist because the causes are rooted in the impersonal nature of large societies as opposed to small clan societies. Given this perpetual new supply of homeless there are only two ways to deal with the problem effectively.

1. Housing First programs, as 2sleepy is referring to again and again.

2. B.I.G. "Basic Income Guarantee" (also known as G.M.I. "Guaranteed Minimum Income"). Look it up.

Housing First has been proven for years. Not only serves the problems, but saves 25% - 50% over the same expenditures already being applied. But, know-nothings oppose these kinds of solutions out of ideological outrage that society would provide "free benefits" to anyone - and that everyone should conform to prescriptive contemporary lifestyles and thought.

B.I.G. beats even Housing First for savings and coverage. It also eliminates any argument of "free support" for who many consider worthless people - because what it does is cancel all welfare and social support programs, take those dollars, divide them by the number of citizens over 18 in the nation, and send an equal monthly check to everyone regardless of employment, health, wealth, social status or any other factor. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet would get a check for the same amount a drunk homeless guy gets. The amount works out to be just sufficient for everyone in America to be at least minimally housed and fed.

And no, it doesn't encourage people to quit working. At all. Proven otherwise in experiment communities elsewhere in the world. It actually resulted in improved employment as low level workers felt incentivized to increase their meager living incomes once they had some dignity of an independent existence.

[Count David]

Originally Posted by Tulemutt

And no, it doesn't encourage people to quit working. At all. Proven otherwise in experiment communities elsewhere in the world. It actually resulted in improved employment as low level workers felt incentivized to increase their meager living incomes once they had some dignity of an independent existence.

If that passes in my lifetime, off to Arvin I go.

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by David Aguilar

If that passes in my lifetime, off to Arvin I go.

Well yes. There are always exceptions to the rule. At least one in every crowd, David. Tag, you're it.

[Texamichiforniasota]

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

Did you bother reading the definition of what it is required to commit someone to a mental hospital against their will? If not, here it is again for you: "When a person, as a result of a mental health disorder, is a danger to others, or to himself or herself, or gravely disabled"

Read my post again, I said it would require changes to the law. That being said, I would argue that someone that has mental illness that affects their ability to provide shelter for themselves is gravely disabled.

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

Let me get this straight, if you have a job then you can do drugs in public otherwise you are sent off to rehab? Ok..so what about the drunks, there are more of them than there are drug addicts, should we make drinking in public a crime too? So maybe if you are having a beer at a restaurant outdoor patio you would have to prove your employment and residence address or off to rehab you would go? Or, maybe you think drunks don't need rehab, just drug addicts

Again, not what I meant. It won't apply to people with a home because 99% of them don't go out to a sidewalk to use. If your stupid enough to go out to the sidewalk in front of your apartment to use, it would apply. BTW, most cities have laws about consumption of alcohol on public sidewalks/streets. There are exemptions for patio dining.

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

Explain how this would work please. Wouldn't we have to institute a law requiring everyone to carry proof of citizenship first, or do you think that when approached by ICE illegals will simply 'self deport' lol.

It would work the same way ICE raids on meatpacking plants and factories work, only instead of deporting hard working immigrants, you're deporting people that are a drain on the rest of society. If ICE can figure out if a meatpacker is in the country legally, they can figure out if a squatter on public property is.

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

You are reducing a very complex problem to a formula that is not only unworkable but illegal.

I agree it's a complex problem. The solutions I proposed are workable, but would require changes in the law.
What we are currently doing isn't working. Frankly, it's not humane either. Allowing people that don't have the capacity to provide themselves with housing sleep on streets is morally wrong. If their families can't or won't care for them, they should be in state care, not on the street yelling at hallucinations and eating garbage.

[tijlover]

Simple! Exile all the anti-density Nimby's and Coastal Commissioners to Catalina Island! Keep 'em there for 10 years! And let the cranes rise, one by one, along the coastline and other parts of Nimby-crazy areas of L.A.!

Homeless problem solved!

[echoParkDate]

Originally Posted by Mike121

For this family member of mine, he has always done best in prison where treatment is forced. Usually for a year or so after getting out of prison, he does great, but, with no real support on the outside, he eventually stops taking meds or ends up back on drugs.

You may blame me for not doing more, but, this has gone on for decades, and it has ruined me emotionally. I just can't any more.

that sounds very tough, god bless!