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The question regarding Kentucky and or Louisville to me is does a traditionally Southern state or city stop being Southern because a large amount of people have moved there from the Northeast and Midwest? Is Florida no longer a Southern State because a large number of it's population is now from the Northeast as well as having a large Cuban or Hispanic population? Likewise, is Virginia still not considered a Southern state because the NE part of it is dominated by people from Washington?
If Florida is still considered a Southern State, then why wouldn't Kentucky and especially Louisville still not be considered Southern, since traditionally and culturally that's what it was. In many respects Kentucky looks and feels much more southern than many parts of Florida.
That is a question I think about also. Especially in areas like Virginia, North Carolina, and the northern third of Florida. You have a much more heavy North to South migration pattern on the east coast verses what you see west of the Appalachian mountains which to a smaller degree is the inverse. Do we call Raleigh NC and Richmond VA northern?? Here is how I look at, if you have a city that is surrounded by traditional southern rural culture, and its working class neighborhoods still retain the native dialect and culture, it's a southern city regardless of how many transplants have moved there. Northern Virginia is a hard one to call because it is so connected to the Northeast corridor and the traditional southern culture is almost non-existent today.
By this measure Louisville and Lexington retain their southern status. Louisville is confusing to many people primarily because it is a river city that has been the center of trade and commerce in Kentucky since in inception, so it has a different history and make up than the rest of very rural KY. This is more of a town country divide verses midwest southern divide. Historically Louisville has been a wealthy city with more facets to its society including a strong managerial class and it received (albeit on a much smaller scale than Cincinnati or St Louis) a sizable immigration population of Germans and Irish. Old Louisville best exemplifies this past. What seems to be lost to many is Louisville's role as the premier city of New South during the late 19th and early 20th century. Here is a link to a book about Courier Journal editor Henry Watterson and the New South. https://muse.jhu.edu/book/10096 So in a way it was a predecessor to what Atlanta is today.
The question regarding Kentucky and or Louisville to me is does a traditionally Southern state or city stop being Southern because a large amount of people have moved there from the Northeast and Midwest? Is Florida no longer a Southern State because a large number of it's population is now from the Northeast as well as having a large Cuban or Hispanic population? Likewise, is Virginia still not considered a Southern state because the NE part of it is dominated by people from Washington?
If Florida is still considered a Southern State, then why wouldn't Kentucky and especially Louisville still not be considered Southern, since traditionally and culturally that's what it was. In many respects Kentucky looks and feels much more southern than many parts of Florida.
Not as much people move to Louisville as do they to NOVA or Florida. It has enough locals to be called a Southern city. The culture therein was Southern to begin with and still is there very visibly.
Not as much people move to Louisville as do they to NOVA or Florida. It has enough locals to be called a Southern city. The culture therein was Southern to begin with and still is there very visibly.
Also, I don't know how much weight this holds, but to my knowledge the Ohio River has always and traditionally been the dividing line between what is considered Northern and what is considered Southern is this region. Demographics may change but geography doesn't.
Also, I don't know how much weight this holds, but to my knowledge the Ohio River has always and traditionally been the dividing line between what is considered Northern and what is considered Southern is this region. Demographics may change but geography doesn't.
It gets tricky though. Because when you're in Northern Kentucky you're culturally more in Ohio than you are in Kentucky.
Parts of Southern Indiana are more Southern culturally than Northern Kentucky. By Northern Kentucky I mean greater Cincinnati.
It gets tricky though. Because when you're in Northern Kentucky you're culturally more in Ohio than you are in Kentucky.
Parts of Southern Indiana are more Southern culturally than Northern Kentucky. By Northern Kentucky I mean greater Cincinnati.
That is true.
The Missouri bootheel for example culturally is more southern than most anywhere in Kentucky. More in a Delta, deep south way though as the tip of the bootheel is only about 60 miles from Mississippi.
A lot of people use the census argument for southern and northern, western, eastern, but states like Maryland and Delaware are NOT even close to be southern in modern standards. Even 150 years ago Delaware was not that southern. For example Missouri is put in the Midwest by the Census, but is far more southern today than Delaware and Maryland.
Missouri is a strange state due to it's location. about 25-30 percent of Missouri presently is southern and about 25 percent of the state is like southern IL and Southern IN which is a mix of Midwest and southern culture and the other 50 percent is Midwestern, lower Midwestern. Overall Missouri is a more Midwestern state but has strong southern influences in it as well.
There needs to be a more detailed map. the southern quarter of Missouri is part of the south, with the upper half of southern MO is in the transition zone and far northern KY near Cincy is part of the Midwest.
I grew up in Missouri & live in Tennessee. I always considered Kentucky our "inverse" state. KY is southern with midwestern influence while Missouri is midwestern with southern influence. Where I grew up might as well be part of the south anyway (Southeast Missouri). Central Missouri feels more foreign to me than Tennessee. I feel at home in the Jackson Purchase as well.
And I do believe that the UNC study put the % of self-identifying southerners in Missouri at about 15%, which seems about right to me.
Kentucky overall is definitely the south, but there are some culturally midwestern Kentuckians though. Missouri runs the range from completely midwestern in St. Louis to completely southern in the Bootheel.
I agree to an extent, but I would consider the southern influence in Missouri much higher than the Midwestern influence on Kentucky is.
As we have mostly agreed on before, 25 percent of Missouri is southern, and 25 percent is a transition zone a mix of Midwestern and southern like southern IN and IL are.
I don't think the Midwestern influence is quite that high in Kentucky. I thought that poll had Missouri at 23 percent.
Kentucky is the most Southern of the border states. It's a toss up between Missouri and Delaware for being the least Southern influenced.
I have heard it said that Kentucky was the only border state to side with the losers after the Civil War. When you compare it to other border states like Missouri, Maryland, Delaware, and even West Virginia, it does have the strongest Southern identity.
Contrast this with Missouri in which Southern sympathy greatly decreased. Missouri didn't even want to really be in the SEC
That's a load of BS because MO today is far more southern than Maryland and Delaware are.
about 50 percent of Missouri lays either in the transition zone or is fully southern in the southern quarter of the state which makes Missouri 25 percent southern, 25 percent a mix of south and Midwest and other 50 percent Midwestern.
MD has small section that still has some southern culture near the Eastern Shore, but it's not a lot. You can't say MO is less southern than MD and DE. Both of those states today are more like the northeast.
Missouri religion wise, politically, and linguistics all have a lot more southern influence in them than DE and MD do today. MO has more southern Baptist than Catholics too.
One thing for certain is MO is very heavily Republican in the general assembly, more so than most of the other southern states now. 117 in the house, and will be 25 seats in the senate after the special election for Parson's vacated seat. Since they got a Republican governor now, they will be able to greatly improve the state more. Kentucky needs to pass permit less carry also since nearby Missouri passed it.
Missouri doesn't bear any resemblance to Southern states in terms of most demographics,culture, and linguistics. You've got it backwards.
Well a quarter of Missouri linguistically is southern and culturally as well and the other 25 percent is a transition zone like southern Illinois and Southern Indiana are. Most everyone agrees with this part. There is also a lot of southern Baptist in Missouri as well so you can't say that Missouri doesn't have any resemblance to other southern states. University of PA linguistics study also backs this up as well.
Missouri is a overall Midwestern state but it has a lot of southern influence in it as well.
Cities like Sikeston, Caruthersville, Branson, Poplar Bluff, West Plains are southern they are not Midwestern culturally. Places like Rolla, Lebanon, Joplin, Nevada, Farmington are in the transition zone with a city like Joplin on the southern end of the end of the transition zone and a city like Farmington is in the northern part of the transition zone.
I'm from Missouri, if you head southwest on highway 44 as you leave St. Louis county you gradually notice the transition taking place as you drive southwest.
You seriously can't say with a straight face a city like Sikeston, Branson, or Poplar Bluff are in the Midwest.
Well a quarter of Missouri linguistically is southern and culturally as well and the other 25 percent is a transition zone like southern Illinois and Southern Indiana are. Most everyone agrees with this part. There is also a lot of southern Baptist in Missouri as well so you can't say that Missouri doesn't have any resemblance to other southern states. University of PA linguistics study also backs this up as well.
Missouri is a overall Midwestern state but it has a lot of southern influence in it as well.
Cities like Sikeston, Caruthersville, Branson, Poplar Bluff, West Plains are southern they are not Midwestern culturally. Places like Rolla, Lebanon, Joplin, Nevada, Farmington are in the transition zone with a city like Joplin on the southern end of the end of the transition zone and a city like Farmington is in the northern part of the transition zone.
I'm from Missouri, if you head southwest on highway 44 as you leave St. Louis county you gradually notice the transition taking place as you drive southwest.
You seriously can't say with a straight face a city like Sikeston, Branson, or Poplar Bluff are in the Midwest.
Missouri has more Southern culture in its Southern extremities than Maryland but being a larger state and being a state that has St. Louis and Kansas City in its most densely populated areas undoes this.
It is a toss up between whether MO or MD are more Southern. It would be a different Southern anyway. Tidewater vs. Something like Memphis.
Wasn't Missouri in the same realm of percentage Southern that Maryland was? Something in the low double digits closer to the single digits? Like both states had about 5-20% Southern identity I remember.
Delaware...yeah I doubt that was ever Southern, ever.
Kentucky though is THE most Southern border state. No question.
Missouri has more Southern culture in its Southern extremities than Maryland but being a larger state and being a state that has St. Louis and Kansas City in its most densely populated areas undoes this.
It is a toss up between whether MO or MD are more Southern. It would be a different Southern anyway. Tidewater vs. Something like Memphis.
Wasn't Missouri in the same realm of percentage Southern that Maryland was? Something in the low double digits closer to the single digits? Like both states had about 5-20% Southern identity I remember.
Delaware...yeah I doubt that was ever Southern, ever.
Kentucky though is THE most Southern border state. No question.
I wont disagree at all with KY! Many people don't mention West Virginia. Today, WV is a true border state IMO. The far northern parts that jet way up OH and is just over 100 miles from the Great Lakes isn't southern though.
I would say IMO Missouri is more southern than Maryland. Religion wise MO is more southern Baptist than MD is also. Also if you look at political ideology Missouri is the opposite extreme to Maryland and Delaware. Politically Missouri behaves like a southern state as well when it comes to abortion, regulations, gun laws (actually better than most southern states). Missouri voters also strongly oppose gay marriage as well.
I live in Florida now and I will say in large, here in FL most of this state isn't southern anymore except rural parts of Florida and mostly in the northern part and pockets in the central part of the state.
Also about Kansas City, East of there in places like Lexington, Higginsville out by the MO river in the "Little Dixie" area you will actually find pockets of southern influence that still exist there as well even though that's fairly far north in the state.
That is true Kansas City and St. Louis have a lot of the population, but about half the state (southern half of MO) still lies either in the transition zone or within the southern zone which is still a decent chunk of the state. No other state in the Midwest has a sizeable chunk of it's state in the south like Missouri does. You never see the argument about if IL, OH or IN are southern or Midwestern states, plus MO being a split state in the civil war being claimed both by the Confederacy and the Union adds to that too.
Here in Florida the major population centers are NOT southern. Places that are southern up in northern florida don't have large populations because nobody wants to live there due to lack of jobs, colder climate than rest of the state, and not much to do.
What do you think about Missouri passing permit less concealed carry that goes into law in 5 days? With total republican domination, hopefully next year it will lead to even better stuff like getting rid of all the gun free zones in Missouri like stadiums and schools which is on the agenda. Trump also won Missouri by 19 points.
Overall I say Missouri is 25 percent Dixie, 25 percent a transition zone, and 50 percent Midwestern. These two maps are a couple examples how Missouri is a big outlier compared to the rest of the Midwest.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 01-01-2017 at 08:27 AM..
Reason: Fixed formatting
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