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Missouri has more Southern culture in its Southern extremities than Maryland but being a larger state and being a state that has St. Louis and Kansas City in its most densely populated areas undoes this.
It is a toss up between whether MO or MD are more Southern. It would be a different Southern anyway. Tidewater vs. Something like Memphis.
Wasn't Missouri in the same realm of percentage Southern that Maryland was? Something in the low double digits closer to the single digits? Like both states had about 5-20% Southern identity I remember.
Delaware...yeah I doubt that was ever Southern, ever.
Kentucky though is THE most Southern border state. No question.
I wont disagree at all with KY! Many people don't mention West Virginia. Today, WV is a true border state IMO. The far northern parts that jet way up OH and is just over 100 miles from the Great Lakes isn't southern though.
I would say IMO Missouri is more southern than Maryland. Religion wise MO is more southern Baptist than MD is also. Also if you look at political ideology Missouri is the opposite extreme to Maryland and Delaware. Politically Missouri behaves like a southern state as well when it comes to abortion, regulations, gun laws (actually better than most southern states). Missouri voters also strongly oppose gay marriage as well.
I live in Florida now and I will say in large, here in FL most of this state isn't southern anymore except rural parts of Florida and mostly in the northern part and pockets in the central part of the state.
Also about Kansas City, East of there in places like Lexington, Higginsville out by the MO river in the "Little Dixie" area you will actually find pockets of southern influence that still exist there as well even though that's fairly far north in the state.
That is true Kansas City and St. Louis have a lot of the population, but about half the state (southern half of MO) still lies either in the transition zone or within the southern zone which is still a decent chunk of the state. No other state in the Midwest has a sizeable chunk of it's state in the south like Missouri does. You never see the argument about if IL, OH or IN are southern or Midwestern states, plus MO being a split state in the civil war being claimed both by the Confederacy and the Union adds to that too.
Here in Florida the major population centers are NOT southern. Places that are southern up in northern florida don't have large populations because nobody wants to live there due to lack of jobs, colder climate than rest of the state, and not much to do.
What do you think about Missouri passing permit less concealed carry that goes into law in 5 days? With total republican domination, hopefully next year it will lead to even better stuff like getting rid of all the gun free zones in Missouri like stadiums and schools which is on the agenda. Trump also won Missouri by 19 points.
Overall I say Missouri is 25 percent Dixie, 25 percent a transition zone, and 50 percent Midwestern. These two maps are a couple examples how Missouri is a big outlier compared to the rest of the Midwest. http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atla...ap/NatMap1.GIF
I wouldn't say KC or St. Louis are anywhere near the transition line. KC is the epitome of Midwestern and St. Louis is more Northern influenced than anything. Heck, think Yogi Berra and he seems more Northern than the majority of most Pennsylvanians!
Last edited by Oldhag1; 01-01-2017 at 08:28 AM..
Reason: Fixed formatting
I wouldn't say KC or St. Louis are anywhere near the transition line. KC is the epitome of Midwestern and St. Louis is more Northern influenced than anything. Heck, think Yogi Berra and he seems more Northern than the majority of most Pennsylvanians!
So? And here in FL you got people from New England as well. South FL has always had an influence from New England, NY even when it wasn't populated. In fact, Back in the 30s Florida had a Jewish governor who was from New York City, David Sholtz.
The transition zone starts south of St. Louis (county/city) and Kansas City. Once you're in southern parts of Jefferson County you can start seeing the gradual hints of it. St. Gen county and Perry County along the MS river are Midwestern and don't have any southern influence.
St. Francois county is in that transition zone, 50 miles south of st. louis and has some southern influences but overall is more Midwestern, similar to southern Illinois. Once you get into Madison county and past Fredericktown then it becomes pretty southern.
In far far eastern Missouri near highway 55 there really isn't a transition zone much. When you get around Jackson Missouri in Cape Girardeau County it becomes southern pretty fast with little transition zone. Goes from Midwest to mostly southern pretty quick in central Cape Girardeau county. THB gunner is from Jackson Missouri area and will say the same thing about the county how there is very little transition zone in the county.
Kansas City is Midwestern, great plains, but east of town as I mentioned in the outer parts like Lexington there are noticeable southern influences left in that area. Again it doesn't mean it's southern but has some influences.
having southern influences and being fully southern is not the same. The northern parts of the transition zone in Missouri are NOT southern. It has gradual southern influences and gets more southern the further south you go.
Now if you want to be more exact of how far St. Louis is from the actual south, not transition zone just south of it, it's about 90 miles from St. Louis to Jackson Missouri if you want to use that as the south line or little more if you want to use Cape Girardeau, same with due south of St. Louis just south of Fredericktown.
St. Louis is about 120 miles from Sikeston, and Sikeston IS the south. Nothing Midwestern about Sikeston Missouri. VERY southern.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 01-01-2017 at 08:29 AM..
Reason: Fixed formatting
So? And here in FL you got people from New England as well. South FL has always had an influence from New England, NY even when it wasn't populated. In fact, Back in the 30s Florida had a Jewish governor who was from New York City, David Sholtz.
The transition zone starts south of St. Louis (county/city) and Kansas City. Once you're in southern parts of Jefferson County you can start seeing the gradual hints of it. St. Gen county and Perry County along the MS river are Midwestern and don't have any southern influence.
St. Francois county is in that transition zone, 50 miles south of st. louis and has some southern influences but overall is more Midwestern, similar to southern Illinois. Once you get into Madison county and past Fredericktown then it becomes pretty southern.
In far far eastern Missouri near highway 55 there really isn't a transition zone much. When you get around Jackson Missouri in Cape Girardeau County it becomes southern pretty fast with little transition zone. Goes from Midwest to mostly southern pretty quick in central Cape Girardeau county. THB gunner is from Jackson Missouri area and will say the same thing about the county how there is very little transition zone in the county.
Kansas City is Midwestern, great plains, but east of town as I mentioned in the outer parts like Lexington there are noticeable southern influences left in that area. Again it doesn't mean it's southern but has some influences.
having southern influences and being fully southern is not the same. The northern parts of the transition zone in Missouri are NOT southern. It has gradual southern influences and gets more southern the further south you go.
Now if you want to be more exact of how far St. Louis is from the actual south, not transition zone just south of it, it's about 90 miles from St. Louis to Jackson Missouri if you want to use that as the south line or little more if you want to use Cape Girardeau, same with due south of St. Louis just south of Fredericktown.
St. Louis is about 120 miles from Sikeston, and Sikeston IS the south. Nothing Midwestern about Sikeston Missouri. VERY southern.
Cape Girardeau is a hybrid. Wouldn't call it Southern. Conservative yes but not truly Southern. There are still Midwest elements there.
St. Louis is about as Northern culturally as MO gets.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 01-01-2017 at 08:30 AM..
Reason: Fixed formatting
Cape Girardeau is a hybrid. Wouldn't call it Southern. Conservative yes but not truly Southern. There are still Midwest elements there.
St. Louis is about as Northern culturally as MO gets.
Jackson, Missouri is more southern than Cape btw. Cape yes, has some outside influences due to the university and is hybrid.
I totally agree about St. Louis. Even 30 miles away from St. Louis it's a lot different in just a short distance.
Springfield and Cape are literally right on the line from the transition zone to fully southern. Last time I was in southern Missouri was 2013.
I stayed at Table Rock near Branson for three days before season started and we really stuck out there. The locals many have that Ozark, Upper South accent down there. I saw no Midwestern influence down at Table Rock less than 20 miles from Arkansas. Springfield also has a lot of southern influence.
Brad Pitt says Springfield is literally right on the Mason Dixon line.
My aunt use to have a house in Southern Missouri on Bull Shoals that was probably about 7 miles from the Arkansas state line and it was NOT Midwestern down in that area of Missouri. It had no Midwestern feel to it. It had the upper south feel to it just like northern Arkansas in the Ozarks.
Overall I agree St. Louis is a northern City and I wont argue one bit about it since I'm from there. The state as a whole however has quite noticeable southern influences and a decent chunk of the state (25 percent, southern quarter) is located in the south though as well as historical ties it has. Illinois and Indiana do not have this. Yes they have some influences but not on the level Missouri has. IN and IL doesn't have the amount southern Baptist MO has and both states while southern parts do have influences from the south, both states do not have a sizeable chunk of the state that is fully southern. Nowhere does IN or IL have a part of the state that is fully southern like Missouri's southern quarter is. Even southern IN has Midwest influences.
You don't see this argument come up with IN or IL being southern or not.
Yeah no doubt MO is Southern influenced as all heck. It is really the only Midwest state that can claim being Southern even if a bit. Maybe that's why people from outside St. Louis say that STL belongs more in Illinois. The 55 corridor certainly proves this.
What do you make of the claim Jeff is Southern? Most people I met from Jeff City seemed pretty Midwestern to me. Whites at least. Some people call that an Ozark city but I believe it's too far to truly be an Ozark city.
Missouri probably has more Southern influence than KY has Midwest. The only "true" Midwestern region is Northern Kentucky up by Cincinnati which has that Midlands/Lower Midwest Rust Belt combo feel. No Southern accents there unlike Louisville which seems to be more Southern in pace, accents, food, and demographics. I do think Louisville can be called hybrid but NKY more Midwest leaning. NKY could fit in St. Louis IMO
Yeah no doubt MO is Southern influenced as all heck. It is really the only Midwest state that can claim being Southern even if a bit.
What do you make of the claim Jeff is Southern? Most people I met from Jeff City seemed pretty Midwestern to me. Whites at least. Some people call that an Ozark city but I believe it's too far to truly be an Ozark city.
Missouri probably has more Southern influence than KY has Midwest. The only "true" Midwestern region is Northern Kentucky up by Cincinnati which has that Midlands/Lower Midwest Rust Belt combo feel. No Southern accents there unlike Louisville which seems to be more Southern in pace, accents, food, and demographics. I do think Louisville can be called hybrid but NKY more Midwest leaning. NKY could fit in St. Louis IMO
Pretty much have to agree with everything you said!
I've never considered Jefferson City southern. The transition zone starts around there though, highway 50 but Jefferson City is not southern but its the start of the transition zone around there. You have to go about 80 miles south of Jefferson City to hit fully southern.
I've never heard Jefferson City called the Ozarks. Just south of there the Ozarks begin.
I always wonder what people to the north of MO think of MO.
I had a teacher in college 6 years ago for a summer class who was from Iowa and he said when you cross over and drive into Missouri how everything feels different and more Evangelical and says the pace in Missouri is a lot slower than Iowa and considers it a border state.
If St. Louis city and county became a part of Illinois Missouri would even be more red than it is now. Democrats would never win state office.
The only democrats left in Missouri are mostly from the KC and St. Louis area now. The rest of the state has flipped over to Republican. Missouri used to have a lot of blue dog conservative to moderate democrats. All that is left is the liberal ones now.
Kentucky just completed it's flip finally too it looks like as their state house flipped to republican control this past election.
Pretty much have to agree with everything you said!
I've never considered Jefferson City southern. The transition zone starts around there though, highway 50 but Jefferson City is not southern but its the start of the transition zone around there. You have to go about 80 miles south of Jefferson City to hit fully southern.
I've never heard Jefferson City called the Ozarks. Just south of there the Ozarks begin.
I always wonder what people to the north of MO think of MO.
I had a teacher in college 6 years ago for a summer class who was from Iowa and he said when you cross over and drive into Missouri how everything feels different and more Evangelical and says the pace in Missouri is a lot slower than Iowa and considers it a border state.
If St. Louis city and county became a part of Illinois Missouri would even be more red than it is now. Democrats would never win state office.
The only democrats left in Missouri are mostly from the KC and St. Louis area now. The rest of the state has flipped over to Republican. Missouri used to have a lot of blue dog conservative to moderate democrats. All that is left is the liberal ones now.
Kentucky just completed it's flip finally too it looks like as their state house flipped to republican control this past election.
Missouri is probably my favorite Midwestern state. So much cultural variance all in one place. It's like the only state where Memphis and Chicago would both fit in.
Kentucky on the other hand can house Memphis (Western Kentucky) but Chicago would be out of place even in Northern Kentucky. By percentage of counties Kentucky is more Southern Baptist than is Missouri by far. So I think this disqualifies Kentucky from the Midwest by far. Even the most Southern culture of Southern Indiana is still in majority Catholic counties. Plus drawls are weak to non existent in most of the state. Honestly going from the Uplands down to the Ohio Valley is a drastic change in culture. Even Louisville people to this day rarely venture into Southern Indiana and vice-versa. There aren't many back to back cultural exchanges between the areas other than people from Southern Indiana going to work in Kentucky.
Even if we grant Louisville a 50% Midwest lean and NKY an 80-90% one, there really are like maybe 10-12 iffy Midwest influenced counties in the whole of Kentucky. And honestly it's more like 3 counties in all of KY that could be called Midwestern. While Kentucky's only true bonafide Southern counties are in Western Kentucky, areas like Lexington and Central Kentucky are Southern enough. Eastern Kentucky is Appalachian which is hard to describe. Redneck, yes. Southern? Ehhhhh Appalachian counties in my opinion have their own unique culture independent of the South. I remember being in Eastern Tennessee and learning sweet tea wasn't served there. You're more likely to find sweet tea in Louisville than you are in some parts of Appalachian. Also Appalachian people don't tend to say y'all as much. I heard a lot of you'uns/yinz (I think that has a Scottish origin)
Missouri is probably my favorite Midwestern state. So much cultural variance all in one place. It's like the only state where Memphis and Chicago would both fit in.
Kentucky on the other hand can house Memphis (Western Kentucky) but Chicago would be out of place even in Northern Kentucky. By percentage of counties Kentucky is more Southern Baptist than is Missouri by far. So I think this disqualifies Kentucky from the Midwest by far. Even the most Southern culture of Southern Indiana is still in majority Catholic counties. Plus drawls are weak to non existent in most of the state. Honestly going from the Uplands down to the Ohio Valley is a drastic change in culture. Even Louisville people to this day rarely venture into Southern Indiana and vice-versa. There aren't many back to back cultural exchanges between the areas other than people from Southern Indiana going to work in Kentucky.
Even if we grant Louisville a 50% Midwest lean and NKY an 80-90% one, there really are like maybe 10-12 iffy Midwest influenced counties in the whole of Kentucky. And honestly it's more like 3 counties in all of KY that could be called Midwestern. While Kentucky's only true bonafide Southern counties are in Western Kentucky, areas like Lexington and Central Kentucky are Southern enough. Eastern Kentucky is Appalachian which is hard to describe. Redneck, yes. Southern? Ehhhhh Appalachian counties in my opinion have their own unique culture independent of the South. I remember being in Eastern Tennessee and learning sweet tea wasn't served there. You're more likely to find sweet tea in Louisville than you are in some parts of Appalachian. Also Appalachian people don't tend to say y'all as much. I heard a lot of you'uns/yinz (I think that has a Scottish origin)
I think the crossing over into state lines thing is a mental thing we all have too. When I lived in St. Louis I lived probably 5 miles from IL but rarely ever crossed over there. Same way with most people and family members of mine. Granted most stuff you need is on the Missouri side but it seems like this in most states, especially states divided by rivers. I remember when I was a small child we had to drive over the JB bridge into IL to buy lotto tickets because MO didn't have a lottery yet. A lot of the southern Baptist were against having state lotto.
I agree about Appalachia too. The Ozarks could be considered it's own sub culture too. However the Ozarks especially the further south you go in Missouri do feel southern though. Like the areas around Branson while the Ozarks, it felt like the upper south.
You're right about southern Indiana too. Like in a few of the Missouri counties, the Catholic counties in southern Indiana can still have some southern influence even though Baptist are not the majority. Cape Girardeau County has a lot of Catholics, but parts of it are pretty southern still.
Well it's like Louisville. Historically Catholic but also historically slave owning to Southern degrees. It is true Germans have throughout their history been abolitionist which is why the Midwest (the most German region of the country) was starkly different than the South. Yet somehow Louisville still had a lot of slavery so how Midwestern was it even then? Like 40-50%? That's not far fetched.
And of course some of Louisville even visually looks more Southern. Like where else in the Midwest are there such high concentrations of Victorians? Or people of English descent? Also Louisville Blacks have historically been a part of the city's identity as a lot descend from the original plantation slaves.
So if even in the most "Midwest" big city of Kentucky do you have such glaring Southern overtones, what does that make the rest of the state? In Missouri you need to get closer to Arkansas and Tennessee/Western Kentucky by New Madrid to be truly in the South whereas in Kentucky you just need to venture into outer ring areas of Louisville. Also since when are Midwestern cities known as "The Gateway to the South"? Nobody says that about Cincinnati which borders the technical South.
If Kentucky starts to get Maryland levels of Northern influence then we can talk about Kentucky not being Southern, then. After all, Maryland has almost fully shifted into a Northern state, having more in common with Pennsylvania than with Virginia. But honestly the whole of the Upper South Atlantic is hardly Southern anymore. Even Virginia Beach has lost most of its Southern character.
Kentucky may in the distant future be that way. Until then it remains the most Southern of the border states.
By their own perception, this is the Southern identity of the border states by least to most personally Southern:
Delaware
Maryland/ Missouri
West Virginia
Kentucky
Now by other people's perception
Delaware
Maryland
Missouri
West Virginia/Kentucky
By personal ideology and the perception of outsiders, Kentucky is absolutely still in the South.
Well it's like Louisville. Historically Catholic but also historically slave owning to Southern degrees. It is true Germans have throughout their history been abolitionist which is why the Midwest (the most German region of the country) was starkly different than the South. Yet somehow Louisville still had a lot of slavery so how Midwestern was it even then? Like 40-50%? That's not far fetched.
And of course some of Louisville even visually looks more Southern. Like where else in the Midwest are there such high concentrations of Victorians? Or people of English descent? Also Louisville Blacks have historically been a part of the city's identity as a lot descend from the original plantation slaves.
So if even in the most "Midwest" big city of Kentucky do you have such glaring Southern overtones, what does that make the rest of the state? In Missouri you need to get closer to Arkansas and Tennessee/Western Kentucky by New Madrid to be truly in the South whereas in Kentucky you just need to venture into outer ring areas of Louisville. Also since when are Midwestern cities known as "The Gateway to the South"? Nobody says that about Cincinnati which borders the technical South.
If Kentucky starts to get Maryland levels of Northern influence then we can talk about Kentucky not being Southern, then. After all, Maryland has almost fully shifted into a Northern state, having more in common with Pennsylvania than with Virginia. But honestly the whole of the Upper South Atlantic is hardly Southern anymore. Even Virginia Beach has lost most of its Southern character.
Kentucky may in the distant future be that way. Until then it remains the most Southern of the border states.
By their own perception, this is the Southern identity of the border states by least to most personally Southern:
Delaware
Maryland/ Missouri
West Virginia
Kentucky
Now by other people's perception
Delaware
Maryland
Missouri
West Virginia/Kentucky
By personal ideology and the perception of outsiders, Kentucky is absolutely still in the South.
I don't think Kentucky will ever become liberal as Maryland or even Virginia. Virginia has became more liberal because of all the growth in northern VA because of the DC metro area and all those government jobs and jobs related to the federal government. Hillary won VA by 4 points I think despite being so toxic and Trump winning traditional more democratic states like OH, MI, WI.
North Carolina has also been shifting too, but at a slower pace.
In Missouri when you're about within 50 miles of the AR border on south it's pretty southern. Above that is a transition zone.
Sure St. Louis and Kansas City are northern but the rest of the state votes more southern.
I don't see Missouri or Kentucky becoming liberal like Maryland or Virginia or even how Florida also has been purple now. Missouri and Kentucky isn't seeing the influx of immigrants like Florida has or people from the northeast moving there.
I would still put Missouri as much more southern as Maryland today though. Even before the civil war broke out Maryland was becoming less southern as their slave population was getting smaller while Missouri's slave population was getting bigger before the civil war.
A sizeable portion of Missouri is either located in the south or in that transition zone mix area.
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