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If I have something life threatening--that's fate. I'll take those consequences.
What about some sort of major medical policy with a huge deductible?
Basically would only use it if you had a heart attack and needed bypass or cancer etc. and racked up a few 100k in medical bills.
It's like car insurance or house insurance...would you go without even though the odds are you won't be collecting on it?
I've been there man, I would urge you to consider some sort of major medical policy so if you get your leg torn off by an alligator or something you can get back to business.
The notion that we'll let people decide whether or not they want health insurance and than refuse to treat those who don't sign up for it is not even worth discussing. Here's why:
Emergency rooms have to treat everyone who shows up period. The only exception would be an adult who signed a form refusing care. Most people aren't going to sign that form when they get to the emergency room and are in a dire condition. Others will come to ER unconscious and will have to be treated anyway. Minors lack the capacity to refuse treatment and will have to be treated. Believe me, the hospitals don't want to get it wrong and be sued for causing a wrongful death. The easiest solution for them is simply to treat everyone who comes through the door.
Even more importantly, the refusal to treat anyone in a dire condition is not only a threat to that person's health--its a threat to the rest of us. Let me explain:
Emergency room personnel have to make quick life and death decisions everyday. That's what they do and they do it well. Their job isn't to be a judge and jury and decide who is "entitled" to medical care. One reason the ENTALA is on the books is that ER personnel don't want to be in the position of having to decide who "deserves" care. They simply want to focus their efforts on providing critical care that will save lives and prevent more serious injuries. It is a threat to YOU AND ME who do have insurance if the ER Room is going to deny care to those without insurance, illegal alliens, or anyone else who "doesn't deserve care" under some Libertarian model of life. I can easily see being denied care under such a system even though I have insurance because they can't find my insurance card, or get ahold of my wife, or find some public record that shows I have the insurance. Nor, would I sleep well at night knowing this could happen to my wife or kids.
You know, the more I hear this twisted Libertarian notion that you should only get the medical care you can pay for, the more convinced I am that some people don't think. It just wouldn't work. And if such a system were ever implemented a whole lot of innocent people would pay with their lives.
What about some sort of major medical policy with a huge deductible?
Basically would only use it if you had a heart attack and needed bypass or cancer etc. and racked up a few 100k in medical bills.
It's like car insurance or house insurance...would you go without even though the odds are you won't be collecting on it?
I've been there man, I would urge you to consider some sort of major medical policy so if you get your leg torn off by an alligator or something you can get back to business.
I've already had to fight with the state. I have a license, but I do not drive. When I stopped paying for auto insurance, they wanted to revoke or suspend my license. I had to point out that I did not OWN a car, and saw no reason to pay for something I do not use.
I don't have house insurance either--I merely rent. I refuse to own a home. I don't care to own a car--I'm not big on "possessions" of any kind. This computer, for example, belongs to my room mate--not me.
No, they will not refuse treatment to anyone seeking it. But, you as a citizen of a free country have the right to refuse medical treatment from them. I watched it happen several months ago at work. A man had a seizure of some sort. The EMT's and police were called. After taking some readings, the EMT requested the man be taken to the hospital. He refused. They had him sign a waiver and were on their way. They had no power to force him to the hospital.
Also, my cousin was an EMT for years. He once responded to a man who had been kicked by a horse. My cousin determined that there was internal bleeding and was going to take the man to the hospital. He refused. Again, the man was required to sign a waver. That evening, the man died. The EMT's were not held accountable since the man, determined to be of sound mind, had refused treatment.
Here is a summary from a New York court ruling:
As a general rule, every human being of adult years and sound mind has a right to determine what shall be done with his own body and cannot be subjected to medical treatment without his consent.
From West's Encyclopedia of American Law:
Consent, particularly informed consent, is the cornerstone of patients' rights. Consent is based on the inviolability of one's person. It means that doctors do not have the right to touch or treat a patient without that patient's approval, because the patient is the one who must live with the consequences and deal with any discomfort caused by treatment. A doctor can be held liable for committing a battery if the doctor touches the patient without first obtaining the patient's consent. (...)
Consent must be voluntary, competent, and informed. Voluntary means that, when the patient gives consent, he or she is free from extreme duress and is not intoxicated or under the influence of medication, and that the doctor has not coerced the patient into giving consent.
Everyone of age and sound mind has the right to refuse treatment. At least that's the way it has been. We'll see what happens in our newly constructed Borg Collective in the future.
Sorry, I guess I misunderstood you. I thought you were refering to hospitals not seeing patients regardless of ability to pay.
You're right, they can sign out as 'Left Against Medical Advice" unless they are determined to be having a psychotic episode of some sort and are determined to be a danger to either themselves or others. In that case, hospitals (in my state anyway) can either "blue paper" them (per a judges orders) for a stay of at least 30 days, or "white paper" them which I believe (don't know for sure on that one) allows for them to be held for at least 90 days.
You know, the more I hear this twisted Libertarian notion that you should only get the medical care you can pay for, the more convinced I am that some people don't think. It just wouldn't work.
I'm not going to speak for others, but you are missing my point. My point is some folks do not want your medical care; they will refuse it for whatever reason (religious or otherwise). It is currently their right to do so. I am stating that for such a person, it is unjust to force them into a system that they do not desire to be a part of and will never participate in. That is not the way this country was set up. That is the way a dictatorship, kingdom or communist nation is set up.
Okay, having said that, I realize these folks a few and far between; hardly anyone would engage in this philosophy. But, they are out there. And need I remind you that a republic is supposed to be for the purpose of protecting the few from the many--protecting from mob rule. Some people do not want to be under your umbrella--in a republic, that is allowed. Or at least it has been. As for the rest of you, do as you will. It is your right. Join hands and sing kumbaya. It's okay. It's just not for everyone.
And you can come up with all the analogies you want. I can dispute them. I don't have to pay car insurance if I don't drive. I don't have to pay property tax if I own no property or live in certain states, I don't have to pay income tax if I have little or no income or live in certain states, I don't have to pay sales tax if I don't buy anything (barter economics) or live in certain states.
Now... I personally do all these things and I pay, but I don't have to. I can opt out. This proposed health care fine is not the same; it's a slavery system. There is no way out but to commit suicide. In my book, that is the antithesis of our constitution and founding philosophy. It is in fact worse than that which we fought a revolution to get away from.
So what I am arguing for has little to do with a libertarian notion. It has to do with trampling on the rights of the few within a republic, which is not the way it is supposed to be. We will leave the libertarian notions for the big stuff. You have to start small when fighting for rights these days, since this country is about as screwed up as Homer’s goat.
And, yes, I know this is making a big deal out of a little thing for most of us. But for some it is not a little deal; it is their lifestyle and they have the right (in this country) to decide for themselves...
Everything about the health care debate is pretty crazy. Really on both sides of the equation people don't know what is going on and are just spouting out a bunch of nonsense.
Making the middle class and upper class pay for everybody's healthcare is crazy. It's redistribution of wealth.
I've declined medical care, many times. My doctor prescribes medications for me, and I just throw them away.
Just this year, a specialist wanted me to get a steroid injection for back pain, and also physical therapy. I told him I'll just go for the PT, and if that doesn't work, I'll let you know. Six weeks of PT, two hours a week, and the pain and discomfort are 100% gone.
Another doctor told me I had high cholesterol, and wrote me a Rx. I went home and made a few slight adjustments to my diet, and the following check, it was fine. But I had never filled the prescription. Same with BP. My diastolic is close to 90, my doc put me on meds. A British doctor would call 90 within acceptable tolerance, so I take no pills.
I'm not going to speak for others, but you are missing my point. My point is some folks do not want your medical care; they will refuse it for whatever reason (religious or otherwise). It is currently their right to do so. I am stating that for such a person, it is unjust to force them into a system that they do not desire to be a part of and will never participate in. That is not the way this country was set up. That is the way a dictatorship, kingdom or communist nation is set up.
Okay, having said that, I realize these folks a few and far between; hardly anyone would engage in this philosophy. But, they are out there. And need I remind you that a republic is supposed to be for the purpose of protecting the few from the many--protecting from mob rule. Some people do not want to be under your umbrella--in a republic, that is allowed. Or at least it has been. As for the rest of you, do as you will. It is your right. Join hands and sing kumbaya. It's okay. It's just not for everyone.
And you can come up with all the analogies you want. I can dispute them. I don't have to pay car insurance if I don't drive. I don't have to pay property tax if I own no property or live in certain states, I don't have to pay income tax if I have little or no income or live in certain states, I don't have to pay sales tax if I don't buy anything (barter economics) or live in certain states.
Now... I personally do all these things and I pay, but I don't have to. I can opt out. This proposed health care fine is not the same; it's a slavery system. There is no way out but to commit suicide. In my book, that is the antithesis of our constitution and founding philosophy. It is in fact worse than that which we fought a revolution to get away from.
So what I am arguing for has little to do with a libertarian notion. It has to do with trampling on the rights of the few within a republic, which is not the way it is supposed to be. We will leave the libertarian notions for the big stuff. You have to start small when fighting for rights these days, since this country is about as screwed up as Homer’s goat.
And, yes, I know this is making a big deal out of a little thing for most of us. But for some it is not a little deal; it is their lifestyle and they have the right (in this country) to decide for themselves..
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I understand the point, but its not really correct. No one can escape income and social security taxes. Those taxes currently pay for Medicare for the old and Medicaid for the poor. All of us are currently forced to participate in that system whether we like it or not. I guess the exception is someone who has no income and therefore doesn't have to pay income tax, but that is it.
I don't think adding one step to that and requiring everyone to pay for health insurance or pay a fine if they don't is that drastic of a change. After all, you go to jail if you don't pay your taxes. The reality is that with any laws at all, people have to give up some small amount of freedom.
I suppose I could look at the details of a plan like this (fines for not having health insurance) and still reject it. However, the concept itself doesn't strike me as totally unreasonable.
People whose only income is Social Security or disability payments do not pay taxes on the income. None is deducted from their checks (ordinarily) and they usually don't even have to file a return.
If there is universal health care, then everybody is in the system, and everybody pays to be in the system. In nearly all countries, the universal health care costs come ouf the general revenues, so it is just the taxes that everybody has to pay. You can't opt out of general taxes. But you are certainly welcome to decline to go to the doctor.
You can't let young healthy people stay out, and then when they get old join up.
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