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Old 06-08-2009, 11:17 AM
 
Location: S.E. US
13,163 posts, read 1,719,057 times
Reputation: 5134

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Whether you call it an "energy tax", "Cap and Trade" or by any other name, this is just another tax, and would have the following impact on families:

1. Raise inflation-adjusted gasoline prices by 74 percent
2. Raise electricity rates 90 percent after adjusting for inflation
3. Raise the cost of living of a typical household by $1,600 a year
4. Raise residential natural gas prices by 55 percent
5. Destroy 1-3 million jobs per year, every year until 2035

Nancy Pelosi wants this passed by the Fourth of July recess. Another "hurry up and pass it" bill so that we don't have too much time to examine it, methinks.

I suppose it's not bad if Obama creates more jobs than this destroys. Some people may still be able to pay the tax without hurting too much.

What would it do to your family? Is an additional $1600 per year in taxes (from this tax alone) sufficiently large increase for you to write a letter, or make a phone call, to your representatives in Congress?


Source:
Facts 1,2,4,5: "Son of Waxman-Markey: More Politics Makes for a More Costly Bill," Heritage Foundation. May 18, 2009.

Fact 3: "Trade-Offs in Allocating Allowances for CO2 Emissions," Congressional Budget Office. April 25, 2009.
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Old 07-04-2009, 01:55 AM
 
3,803 posts, read 9,333,823 times
Reputation: 4978
Thread bump.
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Old 07-06-2009, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Missouri
4,272 posts, read 3,793,592 times
Reputation: 1937
The CBO Report discusses how the allocation of allowances will effect costs for typical households. Does the government sell the allowances or give them away? The report describes three scenarios:

Assumptions: The cap and trade program results in a 15% cut in emissions in 2010. The costs to the energy consumer are taken into account in the analysis.

1. If all allowances were sold and the revenues were given back equally to every household, then average household income would rise from 0.7% to 1.8%.

2. If all allowances were sold and the revenues were used to offset a cut in corporate taxes, then average household income for low-wage earners would decrease by 3% and rise in high-wage households by 1.6%.

3. If all allowances were given away to energy producers which would benefit both producers and shareholders of energy firms, then then average household income for low-wage earners would decrease by 3% and rise in high-wage households by 1.9%.

Of course, anything can happen.

PS: I don't know where the OP got the $1600 value in fact 3, because the CBO report does not mention a $1600 value.

I have not read the Heritage Foundation Report.
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Old 07-06-2009, 07:30 PM
 
6,762 posts, read 11,642,287 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by geofra View Post
1. If all allowances were sold and the revenues were given back equally to every household, then average household income would rise from 0.7% to 1.8%.

2. If all allowances were sold and the revenues were used to offset a cut in corporate taxes, then average household income for low-wage earners would decrease by 3% and rise in high-wage households by 1.6%.
Sold to who? If they are sold to companies, those companies don't pull that money out of thin air. Somebody somewhere loses, and those cost get passed off somewhere, usually to the consumer in the end which is a tax shell game.

Quote:
3. If all allowances were given away to energy producers which would benefit both producers and shareholders of energy firms, then then average household income for low-wage earners would decrease by 3% and rise in high-wage households by 1.9%.
If they are given away, where does the value come from? They are fabricated to begin with and have zero real value, only made up values. This is looking a lot like Enron IMO.
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Old 07-06-2009, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Missouri
4,272 posts, read 3,793,592 times
Reputation: 1937
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXboomerang View Post
Sold to who? If they are sold to companies, those companies don't pull that money out of thin air. Somebody somewhere loses, and those cost get passed off somewhere, usually to the consumer in the end which is a tax shell game.
If they are given away, where does the value come from? They are fabricated to begin with and have zero real value, only made up values. This is looking a lot like Enron IMO.
The report took into account the costs of cap and trade. The cap and trade system BY ITSELF will cause average costs per household to rise from 1.7% to 3.3% above their current household income, the report argues that if the other parts of the program are implemented, then household incomes increase in some of the cases that were analyzed.

The value of the allowances comes from the market. The government sets the CO2 cap. Companies will be given a commodity which they can sell at a windfall or keep if they fall above the cap.

An article from the National Tax Journal goes more in depth and adds more scenarios, if you are interested...
Distributional effects of carbon allowance trading: how government decisions determine winners and losers.
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Wyoming
9,724 posts, read 21,261,489 times
Reputation: 14823
Quote:
Originally Posted by southward bound View Post
Whether you call it an "energy tax", "Cap and Trade" or by any other name, this is just another tax, and would have the following impact on families:

1. Raise inflation-adjusted gasoline prices by 74 percent
2. Raise electricity rates 90 percent after adjusting for inflation
3. Raise the cost of living of a typical household by $1,600 a year
4. Raise residential natural gas prices by 55 percent
5. Destroy 1-3 million jobs per year, every year until 2035

...

What would it do to your family? Is an additional $1600 per year in taxes (from this tax alone) sufficiently large increase for you to write a letter, or make a phone call, to your representatives in Congress?
I don't know what it will do in the end, but if it drives up the price of gasoline by 74%, the price of electricity by 90% and the price of natural gas by 55%, there's no way the cost of living per household will only increase by $1600 per year. This will drive up the price of everything -- food, manufacturing, delivery, retailing costs, etc.

It's already hurting my family (and business) greatly. I'm in an energy extraction area, and the energy producers are afraid to invest at this point. People are getting laid off from work, and I'm losing income. Just yesterday a bride-to-be called to inform me that they were postponing their wedding because her fiance was laid off. That'll cost me $2000 in income. This is the second wedding (where I was the hired photographer) that's been cancelled/postponed this summer. I'm sure it's also cost me a dozen weddings that were never scheduled. And that's just weddings. Throw in the commercial jobs, the family portraits, etc. that people can't afford, and it's getting tough.

So while prices are increasing, income is falling. I've been running a small business for 35 years, but I'm about to call it quits. I could make as much money playing golf, and I'm not a golfer!
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Old 09-02-2009, 12:13 PM
 
436 posts, read 909,488 times
Reputation: 215
This is a great way to make us all dependent on the government, step 1 destroy the economy, step 2 roll out socialism and the government runs the show and yo uare poor and have no freedom.
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