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If you're referring to the Rush Limbaugh/Glenn Beck set, then I can see where you're coming from. I just think that the whole conversation on history and "Who did what when" needs to be balanced. Certainly the historical record of western wrongs needs to be aired and discussed, but must also be discussed within the framework of humanity itself (Ie: dispelling such bull myths as "Only whites used slaves" or "only whites can be racist") and within context. If you use slavery as an example, admonshing the British and French empires w/o a eye towards slavery already (and currently) existant in Africa turns alot of whites off in terms of discussing it in the way it should be discussed. Compare and contrast the Japanese reluctance to even admit to the historical evidence of such atrocities like Rape of Naking or Bataan march during WWII to the deep national shame that has instilled itself in the German psyche as evidenced in the many rememberances to be found in Berlin, Auschwitz, etc. And yet, "Germany" is a white racist opressor nation and Japan is among the shining examples of "empowerment". Many other examples abound as well....
You bring up good examples, but there are always counter-points!
I agree that as a society, every group has got burnt at some point, and eventually there comes a time when bringing up the past is counter-productive. And of course there needs to be balance!
As for dispelling myths, of course history (and life) is way more complex and nuanced than "only whites used slaves" & white people = naughty. The just about every reputable published source acknowledges this; most people with a more than elementary education understand this point as well.
To me, it’s almost if some people are looking for a deflection, or a validation by saying "well Africans practiced slavery amongst themselves long before we got there". This point is true. But it (from a historical viewpoint) doesn't absolve any guilt. What is so hard with saying "that was some messed up %^&*!" and feeling some empathy and then moving on?
As for the Germans, I guess there is a feeling of guilt. I know all Germans weren't nazis. I know people born in the post war years have nothing to do with it either. But if (from the historical viewpoint again), you had to choose to be a German and live with some guilt and some shame, or be a holocaust victim who had their entire family wiped out, what one would you choose?
From the big picture perspective it like;
- "Hey! You killed my entire family, almost starved me to death, used me for slave labour and stole all my possessions!"
- "Hey! Don't remind me about that because it makes me embarrassed! I'm getting in my VW now and rolling up the window! Nah-nah-nah I can't hear you!"
As for your Japanese example, ask people in China or Korea if they "forget" about WWII. See what they think about Japan's inability to apologize.
Of course I'm using extreme examples to prove my point. No offence to any Germans.
Being white is not an "outward appearance", nor a skin color. It is a cultural set of behaviors. Being White is also a "learned condition". I grew up in a white household in a white community, and what I learned was to be white.
You're conflating culture and appearance in a rather bizarre way.
If this were true, then an African American can also be White. I mean, an African American can learn this set of cultural behaviors. And, technically, s/he could also grow up in a White household and in a White community. So, by your definition, this person would be White. Yet, we really know that "outward appearance" and "skin color" would suggest otherwise.
To me, Barack Obama and Colin Powell are pretty obviously White. I understand that they have some African ancestry, but that doesn't get in the way of them being White. Other people would say that they have White ancestry, but that doesn't get in the way of their being Black. Those other people are welcome to think that if they wish.
To me, Barack Obama and Colin Powell are pretty obviously White. I understand that they have some African ancestry, but that doesn't get in the way of them being White. Other people would say that they have White ancestry, but that doesn't get in the way of their being Black. Those other people are welcome to think that if they wish.
Well, I'm pretty sure the KKK, skinheads, etc. consider anyone who has dark skin to be NOT white. Like it or not, people are judged and treated based on perceived race.
To me, Barack Obama and Colin Powell are pretty obviously White. I understand that they have some African ancestry, but that doesn't get in the way of them being White. Other people would say that they have White ancestry, but that doesn't get in the way of their being Black. Those other people are welcome to think that if they wish.
Are you just being contrary? Or are you saying because both men are professional and accomplished that they are "white"? And if they were unprofessional and unaccomplished, by the same logic, be "black"?
Barack Obama, President = white?
Barack Obama, dude on the corner = black?
Being white is not an "outward appearance", nor a skin color. It is a cultural set of behaviors. Being White is also a "learned condition". I grew up in a white household in a white community, and what I learned was to be white.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davey123
If this were true, then an African American can also be White. I mean, an African American can learn this set of cultural behaviors. And, technically, s/he could also grow up in a White household and in a White community. So, by your definition, this person would be White. Yet, we really know that "outward appearance" and "skin color" would suggest otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88
To me, Barack Obama and Colin Powell are pretty obviously White. I understand that they have some African ancestry, but that doesn't get in the way of them being White. Other people would say that they have White ancestry, but that doesn't get in the way of their being Black. Those other people are welcome to think that if they wish.
Doesn't the criteria that you use to define what "being White" is extend beyond Obama and Powell? My read on what you describe would seem to suggest that basically anybody can be White (if they fit the criteria that you use).
Doesn't the criteria that you use to define what "being White" is extend beyond Obama and Powell? My read on what you describe would seem to suggest that basically anybody can be White (if they fit the criteria that you use).
Of course. I've met a number of people who talk like white people and otherwise comport themselves like white people, but who have some African ancestry. I didn't feel it was appropriate to name them because you probably don't know them, and since tney are not public figures, it would have been an invasion of their privacy. That's why I restricted my list to Obama and Powell.
You're right, anybody can be white, using my criteria. But not if they drive real slow through supermarket parking lots with rims and blaring rap on subwoofers. No matter what color their skin appears to be.
Or, are you one of those racists, who refuses to acknowledge that people who are of Black culture are different from those of white culture, and uses skin color alone to distinguish them?
Of course. I've met a number of people who talk like white people and otherwise comport themselves like white people, but who have some African ancestry. I didn't feel it was appropriate to name them because you probably don't know them, and since tney are not public figures, it would have been an invasion of their privacy. That's why I restricted my list to Obama and Powell.
You're right, anybody can be white, using my criteria. But not if they drive real slow through supermarket parking lots with rims and blaring rap on subwoofers. No matter what color their skin appears to be.
Or, are you one of those racists, who refuses to acknowledge that people who are of Black culture are different from those of white culture, and uses skin color alone to distinguish them?
I'm not a racist at all. I just wanted you to clarify your point. Of course, your clarification raises more concerns. Talking White and comporting oneself as White. Hmm. That's interesting. I guess I do not know how one "talks" White. And, how exactly does one comport him/herself as White? Further clarification is needed.
I'm not a racist at all. I just wanted you to clarify your point. Of course, your clarification raises more concerns. Talking White and comporting oneself as White. Hmm. That's interesting. I guess I do not know how one "talks" White. And, how exactly does one comport themself as White?
The same way, but less noticably, as one comports himself to be black. It is particularly noticeable in speech. Although blacks and whites go to the same schools and watch the same TV, blacks perpetuate a different speech pattern within their culture. In fact, they get quite offended if whites try to encourage them to talk like white people, considering that an affront to their cultural identity. THEIR cultural identity, that they want to hold on to, not mine. I did not create that difference, and I am not fightng to preserve it.
Blacks want their way of talking to be different from whites--- and then people call me a racist for being aware of that.
The same way, but less noticably, as one comports himself to be black. It is particularly noticeable in speech. Although blacks and whites go to the same schools and watch the same TV, blacks perpetuate a different speech pattern within their culture. In fact, they get quite offended if whites try to encourage them to talk like white people, considering that an affront to their cultural identity. THEIR cultural identity, that they want to hold on to, not mine. I did not create that difference, and I am not fightng to preserve it.
Blacks want their way of talking to be different from whites--- and then people call me a racist for being aware of that.
Again, I'm asking you, how does one talk White? And, how does one comport him/herself as White? This is not a Black/White question here. I mean, from what you are saying Latino/as should be able to do this as well. So, please be more specific on what you mean by talking and comporting oneself as White.
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