Are Democracy and a Thriving Diverse Economy in Russia a Lost Cause?? (pros, teachers)
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It's precisely this type of persecution of a normal political party (I'm referring to Yabloko) that demonstrates why democracy in Russia might be a lost cause.
You're accusing them of supporting terrorists. So I was using your tactics to illustrate the official mindset in Russia, which is anti-democratic, and alarmingly Stalinist.
It would appear that Udaltsov was framed on the terrorist charges, as the Yabloko representative said in the film. For those who would like an alternative view re: Udaltsov than the official gov't organs and gov't apologists present: Sergei Udaltsov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
He wanted to allow people to buy shares of any company at will. Who had the money? Some middle class and above. The same people, who got rich in 1990's.
I am afraid he is right erasure with an exception that there was no middle class in 1990 Russia.
The industry was snatched by the people who ran the country, Factory workers and average citizens did not have any money to participate in the process anyways.
Erasure. KGB never stopped running Russia. KGB was not disbanded but simply renamed. KGB officers were not sentenced to prison terms for their crimes against Russian society but stayed with the FSB.
Again you are wrong as usual. In the beginning of the nineties the power of this organization was gone; part of them joined the looting and part of them was thrown out of the game completely.
( That's why part of today die-hard "liberals" remember the nineties with nostalgic sentiment - amidst chaos and destruction there was this time of total political freedom.)
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KGB has always been the right hand of the Party. The most trusted and reliable party members. Of course nomenklatura chose KGB to run the show.
Since, as Yavlinsky pointed out, Russia never went through formal de-communization what else would you expect?
And again, Harvard is as liberal and leftist as an university in the us can get.
Why are you blaming these naive Harvard eggheads for Russia failure to deal with its own past? By the way, Yavlinsky makes the same exact point and even calls the lack of proper decommunization of Russia the key to understanding the reasons why the democratic and economic reforms simply failed in Russia. This is from his PBS interview:
GRIGORY YAVLINSKY: Yes. That's the key, that's the key. So the story, from that point of view, was that one of the main reasons why in Eastern Europe the reforms were very successful and in Russia they were not. It was in 1991 in Eastern Europe that the real democratic revolution happened, which means that new people came to power. It was a real replacement of the political elite, like it was after the war in Germany and Japan, when the Nazi leaders were completely ripped out and new people came in. The same happened in Eastern Europe after 1991. In Russia, it was a nomenklatura termidor [a return to power of top Soviet Communists]. It was a kind of revenge, a very tricky one. The same people changed their jackets and changed the portraits in the rooms, and instead of saying "communism," "Lenin," and "Five-Year Plan," they started to say as keywords "market," "democracy," and "freedom," with the same substance that was behind "Lenin" and "communism" and "Five-Year Plan."
I never talked about Yavlinsky as politician for a reason.
If Yavlinsky is calling for "decommunizatoin" of Russia, he should have started with himself, because he was a member of communist party since 1985, and had a pretty decent post in Soviet government.
What he means to say, is that he'd love to see the most immoral and corrupt part of communists to be gone - precisely the part of people that Harvard chose to deal with.
That's number one, and number two - before Havel there was the "Prague's Spring" in Czechoslovakia.
How did it end, in spite of bravery of Czechs? Not too well, because of Moscow's decision.
So it was Moscow as well that let "Solidarnost" happen in Poland, as much as Havel and the rest.
I'm pointing you simply at a fact that you are comparing incomparable - the epicenter with less significant peripheral states of Eastern Europe.
They didn't "just do" anything. Yavlinsky and his party didn't do anything. You were accusing them of supporting terrorists.
It's embarrassing that you believe whatever the gov't puts on TV. You probably believed the clip they showed of someone walking into the American Embassy as proof that the US somehow orchestrated the anti-Putin protests, too.
He wanted to allow people to buy shares of any company at will. Who had the money? Some middle class and above. The same people, who got rich in 1990's.
Take his numbers about "money on hand in all kinds of ways" with a grin, at best. He counted all property, and treats it as cash.
Where do you hear him talking about "shares" here?
He is talking about assets; he is talking about average people buying beauty shops, land, transportation and so forth. He is talking about the creation of middle class, that simply didn't exist in the Soviet Union, and hence simply couldn't "have money" as you insist.
Now who had the money in Soviet times? People of different kinds; plenty of people were keeping their money on sberknizka or even more - under the mattresses. Few of them could combine their money and buy a small business for example. Did Soviet nomneklatura had the money as well? Yes they did, and they would have used it for their advantage of course, but they wouldn't have been able to topple everyone else, if everyone else would have been allowed to participate in privatization - the way Yavlinsky envisioned it.
Again you are wrong as usual. In the beginning of the nineties the power of this organization was gone; part of them joined the looting and part of them was thrown out of the game completely.
( That's why part of today die-hard "liberals" remember the nineties with nostalgic sentiment - amidst chaos and destruction there was this time of total political freedom.)
I remember this. The entire Yeltsin era was relatively free. Compared to Putin. You could immediately spot the former Communists (-turned "democrats"), so you just avoided them, and did your own thing. Even if they knew what you were up to, they couldn't touch you. That changed immediately under Putin.
Where do you hear him talking about "shares" here?
He is talking about assets; he is talking about average people buying beauty shops, land, transportation and so forth.
Buying with what? Average Russian factory worker or a doctor who could barely afford a soviet car buying shares of factories, land and transportation? How were they supposed to afford it?
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Originally Posted by erasure
He is talking about the creation of middle class, that simply didn't exist in the Soviet Union, and hence simply couldn't "have money" as you insist.
Now who had the money in Soviet times? People of all kind of walk; plenty of people were keeping their money on sberknizka or even more - under the mattresses. Few of them could combine their money and buy a small business for example.
And who would decide who can buy what? Did you envision public auctions?
Nobody had more money than nomenklatura and connected people.
Let's be honest, this is not about coffee shops. This is about big factories.
[quote=erasure;26912883
Did Soviet nomneklatura had the money as well? Yes they did, and they would have used it for their advantage of course, but they wouldn't have been able to topple everyone else, if everyone else would have been allowed to participate in privatization - the way Yavlinsky envisioned it.[/QUOTE]
In reality you could only participate if you had money and wanted to risk it. In reality the only participants were people in power as money means power and power means money. The communists nomenklatura, the try rulers and owners of soviet union, people privileged in soviet times with access to special clinics and stores, special vacation resorts and cars, they in essence gave the industry to themselves.
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