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The enemy? How ethnocentric, the enemy. Either for us or against us. Either pro military or a communist enemy of the state!
It seems fair in your case, since you want to try to ignore the obvious and verifiable torture McCain endured in favor of suggesting the VC were flower boys and sweetness and light and treated McCain with respect and dignity.
Are the many pilots who delivered their munitions without being shotdown also equally hero's?
Are the many pilots who were shot down and lost their lives not greater hero's?
Or is hero a term being used by those who wish to manipulate the thinking of American's once again for political gain. Is doing so an insult to the many who served and were not labeled hero's? What about the loved ones of these valiant warriors is not their reputation worthy of hero status? Since you use the term TRUE are you suggesting there is a hierarchy of Vietnam hero's and he is elevated above them?
It seems fair in your case, since you want to try to ignore the obvious and verifiable torture McCain endured in favor of suggesting the VC were flower boys and sweetness and light and treated McCain with respect and dignity.
The torture is not in dispute. The question is the civilians who pulled him from the water and the level of kindness they showed. We all agree once in captivity it was cruelty all the way.
The question is the civilians who pulled him from the water and the level of kindness they showed.
You call this kindness?
Quote:
After McCain's plane was shot down, he fell into a lake in Hanoi, breaking a leg and both arms as he ejected from the plane. A crowd gathered and pulled him out of the water, kicking and hitting him as his right foot dangled next to his left knee at a 90 degree angle. Instead of being treated under the rules of the Geneva Convention, someone smashed a rifle butt into his shoulder and broke it. A bayonet was stuck into his ankle and his groin. Taken to the Hanoi Hilton, as the prison for American POWs was called, he was stretched out on the cold floor -- and over the next several days beaten again and again, his broken arms and leg included. They let him lay there for days in excruciating pain, lying in vomit and his own waste. Eventually he was moved to a hospital, never washed or cleaned, to lie with rats and swarming mosquitoes. His interrogators came to the "hospital" and -- repeatedly -- savagely beat him day after day as he shrieked in agony. Then it was back to his prison cell, where one guard would hold him while others took turns beating him over and over again. His ribs were broken, his teeth cracked. Both arms were broken, for the second time, neither set properly when finally treated.
Mai Van On, a 50-year-old resident of Hanoi, watched the crash and left the safety of his air-raid shelter to rescue him. Other Vietnamese tried to stop him. "Why do you want to go out and rescue our enemy?" they yelled. Ignoring his countrymen, On grabbed a pole and swam to the spot where McCain's plane had gone down in 16 feet of water. McCain had managed to free himself from the wrecked plane but was stuck underwater, ensnared by his parachute. On used his pole to untangle the ropes and pull the semi-conscious pilot to the surface. McCain was in bad shape, having broken his arm and a leg in several places.
McCain is lucky the locals didn't finish him off. U.S. bombs had killed hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese civilians, many in Hanoi. Ultimately between one and two million innocents would be shredded, impaled, blown to bits and dissolved by American bombs. Now that one of their tormentors had fallen into their hands, they had a rare chance to get even. "About 40 people were standing there," On later recalled. "They were about to rush him with their fists and stones. I asked them not to kill him. He was beaten for a while before I could stop them." He was turned over to local policemen, who transferred him to the military.
What if one of the hijackers who destroyed the World Trade Center had somehow crash-landed in the Hudson River? How long would he have lasted? Would anyone have risked his life to rescue him?
yes that person did show kindness and that is what the other person was trying to say. Many were cruel but we must remember that the many are composed of individuals who should be judged on the merit of their individual actions. We wouldn't want to stereotype all now would we? That could make us very unpopular with those we stereotype negatively.
He lived didn't he? More than you can say for the women and children slowly tortured to death by napalm dropped by McCain, who had no business bombing Vietnam or being there period.
Please will some McCain supporter share what all constitutes him earning the title of hero. That help us to get beyond solely focusing on McCain the pilot who was shot down became a POW for five years to return home to his loving family who supported him during his internment.
Hmmm maybe there is a cause and effect here that hopefully is controlled by medication and therapy.
Yes Eisenhower once said to become president one must be a lunatic or an egomaniac, this year we have both Obama the egomaniac and McCain the lunatic, congrat America. But going back to my statement, you do have more validity to state McCain's character flaws by his personal carelessness which got him into the POW camp in the first place rather than his sexual escapades, which I may state he was bayonetted in one of his nuts, not leaving him much of a sexual escapade. If you want to see a real American hero, try wikipedia Colonel Day, served in the Army, Air Force, Marines, escaped out of Hanoi Hilton and saved McCain's life.
Day however believes McCain to be an American hero, according to Day, "he just doesn’t trade on that. I think he feels that it’s wrong to trade on being a hero, but he is.” Neither does McCain use Jimmy as a talking point, his son who has served in Iraq.
Last edited by RangerDuke08; 06-29-2008 at 01:01 PM..
Ok since no one else will do it I will. This is the merit of his war record as published on his web site. This is what constitutes his hero status and what as one poster said makes him a true hero. This is what elevates him above the many others who served and have not received that designation.
As the son and grandson of distinguished Navy admirals, John McCain deeply values duty, honor and service of country. John attended college at the United States Naval Academy, and launched a 22-year career as a naval aviator upon his graduation. He continued the McCain tradition of service to country passed down to him from his father and grandfather when he asked to serve in the Vietnam War.
On July 29 1967, John narrowly survived the first of many near-death experiences during his lifetime while preparing to take off on a bombing mission over North Vietnam from his ship, the USS Forrestal. A missile accidentally fired from a nearby plane struck the fuel tanks on John's plane and created a deadly inferno aboard the ship. John barely escaped the fiery disaster that killed 134 men, injured hundreds more and destroyed 20 planes.
Instead of taking the option to return home after the Forrestal disaster, Senator McCain volunteered for more combat duty - a fateful decision that stopped the clock on his life and separated him from his family, and country, for five and a half years.
During his 23rd bombing mission on October 26, 1967, a missile struck John's plane and forced him to eject, knocking him unconscious and breaking both his arms and his leg. John was then taken as a prisoner of war into the now infamous "Hanoi Hilton," where he was denied necessary medical treatment and often beaten by the North Vietnamese. John spent much of his time as a prisoner of war in solitary confinement, aided by his faith and the friendships of his fellow POWs. When he was finally released and able to return home years later, John continued his service by regaining his naval flight status.
Senator McCain's last Navy duty assignment was to serve as the naval liaison to the United States Senate. John retired from the Navy in 1981. His naval honors include the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart, and the Distinguished Flying Cross.
this is from his site so it can't get any better. That being said how does this translate into making him the superior candidate to guide us with his judgement in critical political, economic and domestic situations over the next four years.
Are you a former military? Until you are in his shoes you wouldnt understand. Why is it so hard for you to call him a hero? He lived in a 8 x 8 box for almost 5 years and never once gave out vital information he knew even under vast torturing of him. That takes guts. Not many would have done what he did.
So now you are making fun of him getting shot down. Someone needs some real help here. Stooping this low only means one thing.
"I know he's trying to get traction by seeking to play to what he thinks is his strong suit of national security," Clark said of McCain while speaking from his office in Little Rock, Arkansas. "The truth is that, in national security terms, he's largely untested and untried. He's never been responsible for policy formulation. He's never had leadership in a crisis, or in anything larger than his own element on an aircraft carrier or [in managing] his own congressional staff. It's not clear that this is going to be the strong suit that he thinks it is."
Resume aside, though, Clark also took issue with the Arizona Republican's instincts on national security. "McCain's weakness is that he's always been for the use of force, force and more force. In my experience, the only time to use force is as a last resort. ... When he talks about throwing Russia out of the G8 and makes ditties about bombing Iran, he betrays a disrespect for the office of the presidency."
Thanks to Waldim for the lead in this post.
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From another blog version
