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I get tired of hearing the cliche "immigrants only take jobs Americans don't want".
Another way of saying this is that "I have a job that is so bad and the working conditions are so awful that even though I pay the minimum wage or more, along with the employer's social security contribution, that no one wants it".
Americans would take such a job if concessions were made to make it more tolerable. For example, pay could be increased. Breaks could be increased. Unsafe working conditions could be made safe for employees.
The only person who doesn't think such a job ought to have to be improved is someone who is a true sweatshop owner. I'm sure he wants things to stay just the way they are and is content to hire undocumented workers. The rest of us shouldn't stand for it. Such employers should be fined for breaking the law or worse.
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
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I really cannot believe that the many posters here looking for work would accept minimum wage to work picking tomatoes in the fields or cleaning bathrooms at a hotel. As for construction work, most of the illegals in that
kind of work are day laborers paid under the table.
I really cannot believe that the many posters here looking for work would accept minimum wage to work picking tomatoes in the fields or cleaning bathrooms at a hotel. As for construction work, most of the illegals in that
kind of work are day laborers paid under the table.
I have to call BS on this, during the housing boom, every construction large site in southern california was using immigrant labor. Their skill levels were so low at some sights they had to spray paint different colors on the pre cut lumber to give them a clue what ends went together.
The number of illegal alians in this country is equal to the number of unemployed, about 20 million. Do you think this is a coinsidence?
Belive me, if I were unemployed and had to feed my family, I would take a job picking tomatoes or cleaning bathrooms, I have done worse jobs in my life.
The argument that immigrants only take jobs Americans don't want is a straw man with no basis in fact.
The fact is every construction profession has been decimated by immigration.
Immigration by its very nature reduces wages for all labor by increasing the supply of workers.
Well, I can make the same type of claim that you do not have any basis in fact.
Now, you say "The Fact...". Wow! You make as claim just as I did and yet you call mine a "straw man"?
It looks like we both may be wrong then with our straw men.
Maybe it would have been better to ask what I based my claim on but since your mind seems made up you simply response in a way that also applies to you.
As far as the last statement I agree. However, that has nothing to do with the point I brought up, irrelevant. Take care.
I frequently hire legal (I check as I do some govt. contracts) immigrants for construction projects around Chicago. Projects include drywall, flooring, painting, etc. I get few proposals from "America-born" workers who want to take on a smaller, non-union project. It is always the legal immigrants (Mexican and Polish) who are willing to do the work for the lowest costs AND want to put in the most hours. I actually have to tell them that I do not need them to work weekends and 12 hour days. But they try to work the longer hours, so they can move on to their next money-making project.
From what I've seen, these foreign born workers are very motivated to work hard and make a new life for their families in this country - they see the opportunity. I believe this work ethic tends to be very strong in these immigrant workers.
I have no problem paying a legal immigrant fair and legal wages in order to keep my costs down. My company is then more profitable and I, in turn, may continue to win projects and hire more workers (native or foreign-born) and offer benefits to my full-time employees (native or foreign born).
I will add that I also sell products to foreign customers, profits from which are used to pay wages/benefits for my American workers. I have fully embraced the "new global economy," perhaps to the chagrin of some of the posters on this thread.
I get tired of hearing the cliche "immigrants only take jobs Americans don't want".
Another way of saying this is that "I have a job that is so bad and the working conditions are so awful that even though I pay the minimum wage or more, along with the employer's social security contribution, that no one wants it".
Americans would take such a job if concessions were made to make it more tolerable. For example, pay could be increased. Breaks could be increased. Unsafe working conditions could be made safe for employees.
The only person who doesn't think such a job ought to have to be improved is someone who is a true sweatshop owner. I'm sure he wants things to stay just the way they are and is content to hire undocumented workers. The rest of us shouldn't stand for it. Such employers should be fined for breaking the law or worse.
I understand as some people get tired of the claim immigrants take jobs from Americans.
Even though it is true to some degree the other part is that THERE ARE JOBS Americans will not take.
I will try to support my claim with historical and present situations. In the past Amercans migrated to find jobs, load the wagon and looked for a better life. Today people from other countries do the same, no different than our ancestors as pioners. You may say that our pioners did it legally? Really? In many cases they did not, simply took land or whatever from whomever they wanted. Others did do it legally and morally correct.
Today? Do you see Americans migrating to the states like California in hordes to pick tomatoes other vegetables and fruits? No. Do the research. Do you see American walking long distance to get to those jobs? No, not at all.
Also, people talk in terms of people taking their jobs. Look how some businesses move to other states. What happens when that happens. The state they left ends up with less jobs and the other state gains jobs. Why this happens, because business will move where the labor force is cheaper, nothing wrong with that. In order for a business to survive owners will find where they can find cheaper labor.
People do not like to hear it but business is not a social engineering programs. It is there to make money and that means producing jobs, not to be like a welfare program. Even non-profit organizations have to work hard to survive and make money somehow to keep their organization going.
So my words do not get spineed as others do on one of my points, I am suggesting I agree with illegal immigration. My main point is that the claim that they come to take our jobs does have validity but it is not totally accurate. There are jobs that American in general will not take. As I said before, do your research and see if they are long lines made up of Americans from all over the states applying for jobs to pick tomatoes as I said, take care.
Why this happens, because business will move where the labor force is cheaper, nothing wrong with that. In order for a business to survive owners will find where they can find cheaper labor.
People do not like to hear it but business is not a social engineering programs. It is there to make money and that means producing jobs, not to be like a welfare program.
YES! Nicely said.... Businesses strive to keep costs down (which includes labor costs) as the goal is to make money. If there is cheaper, legal, quality labor available in the market, businesses will seek out that labor just as their competition does. This keeps costs down and prices down. However, if businesses need a harder to find/more specialized skillset, salaries will be higher to reflect the skill supply vs demand and product costs reflect this. I know this is Business 101, yet seems to be a hard concept for some.
YES! Nicely said.... Businesses strive to keep costs down (which includes labor costs) as the goal is to make money. If there is cheaper, legal, quality labor available in the market, businesses will seek out that labor just as their competition does. This keeps costs down and prices down. However, if businesses need a harder to find/more specialized skillset, salaries will be higher to reflect the skill supply vs demand and product costs reflect this. I know this is Business 101, yet seems to be a hard concept for some.
Thanks. People probably know the concept but they just do not want to accept it.
Also, I take a chance to correct something I wrote:
So my words do not get spineed as others do on one of my points, I am suggesting I DO NOT agree with illegal immigration. My main point is that the claim that they come to take our jobs does have validity but it is not totally accurate. There are jobs that American in general will not take. As I said before, do your research and see if they are long lines made up of Americans from all over the states applying for jobs to pick tomatoes as I said, take care.
The portion in blue was not there and that is what I meant.
I understand as some people get tired of the claim immigrants take jobs from Americans.
Even though it is true to some degree the other part is that THERE ARE JOBS Americans will not take.
I will try to support my claim with historical and present situations. In the past Amercans migrated to find jobs, load the wagon and looked for a better life. Today people from other countries do the same, no different than our ancestors as pioners. You may say that our pioners did it legally? Really? In many cases they did not, simply took land or whatever from whomever they wanted. Others did do it legally and morally correct.
Today? Do you see Americans migrating to the states like California in hordes to pick tomatoes other vegetables and fruits? No. Do the research. Do you see American walking long distance to get to those jobs? No, not at all.
Also, people talk in terms of people taking their jobs. Look how some businesses move to other states. What happens when that happens. The state they left ends up with less jobs and the other state gains jobs. Why this happens, because business will move where the labor force is cheaper, nothing wrong with that. In order for a business to survive owners will find where they can find cheaper labor.
People do not like to hear it but business is not a social engineering programs. It is there to make money and that means producing jobs, not to be like a welfare program. Even non-profit organizations have to work hard to survive and make money somehow to keep their organization going.
So my words do not get spineed as others do on one of my points, I am suggesting I agree with illegal immigration. My main point is that the claim that they come to take our jobs does have validity but it is not totally accurate. There are jobs that American in general will not take. As I said before, do your research and see if they are long lines made up of Americans from all over the states applying for jobs to pick tomatoes as I said, take care.
Your history lesson is a little skewed, while it is true that farm workers from Oklahoma and other states came to California seeking employment in the last depression, the jobs they were taking were formerly done by illegal’s who were deported.
Today with much of our food grown outside of the US to begin with, and the water situation is making farming less profitable, there is just not that much in the way of farm labor compared to other employment.
This is a more accurate example of the impact of immigration.
In Los Angeles, unionized janitors had been earning $12 an hour, with benefits. However, with the advent of subcontractors who compose roaming crews of Mexican and El Salvadoran laborers, the pay dropped to the minimum wage of $3.35 per hour. Within two years, the unionized crews had all been displaced by the foreign ones, and without any other skills, most of the native workforce did not find new work.
Immigration is no different from any thing else, when changes happen, those changes rarely benefit everyone. Change usually involves someone benefiting at someone else’s expense.
The real question is who is benefiting and who is loosing.
In the case of immigration, as the example above, usually it is American workers loosing by way of lower wages and fewer jobs, while business and immigrants benefit.
The bottom line is that the US should look after its citizens first, and structure its policies to benefit them. Present immigration policy is designed to benefit business at the expense of workers.
In addition the argument that immigration does nothing to hurt American workers is just plain wrong and dishonest.
Your history lesson is a little skewed, while it is true that farm workers from Oklahoma and other states came to California seeking employment in the last depression, the jobs they were taking were formerly done by illegal’s who were deported. It was not skewed at all by reading your message already. I mentioned history in general by stating how AMERICANS in the past moved and wherever the jobs were and that is true. The example you cite may be true and that supports my claim that those Americans in the past moved where the work was. TODAY with the unemployment as it is, do you see that happening now? I do not see that. AGAIN, do you see them in long lines after they moved from other Hometown, USA to get jobs picking tomatoes? I do not think you will but prove me wrong. If American displaced illegals in the past they can do that TODAY in California or other states that have jobs of that type. It was done in the past, why not now?
Today with much of our food grown outside of the US to begin with, and the water situation is making farming less profitable, there is just not that much in the way of farm labor compared to other employment. Farming less profitable? Why? Let me give you an example. If minimum wage was not in place competition would drive down prices and the customers would benefit. That is what free market does but once make businesses pay more prices will go up to make up for the extra pay. With this in mind for sure we become less competitive in the world market. Water, I have to read more on that on the areas this is the problem. So far that is not what I have read. I have read articles from farmers not being able to hire enough people to harvest their fields after they were raided and lost all the illegal immigrants to do the work. That I have read. My claim is that those types of jobs can be given to people from other countries that are willing to work and get paid less. We can do that legally by hiring temporary workers. Many of them ARE willing to go back to their contries after the harvest season is over. Many of them do not want to be here in the US permanently. They rather go back home with their families. Why they stay? Because it is difficult to go back and cross the border again. In the past we had programs like that and it worked. Why not now?
This is a more accurate example of the impact of immigration.
In Los Angeles, unionized janitors had been earning $12 an hour, with benefits. However, with the advent of subcontractors who compose roaming crews of Mexican and El Salvadoran laborers, the pay dropped to the minimum wage of $3.35 per hour. Within two years, the unionized crews had all been displaced by the foreign ones, and without any other skills, most of the native workforce did not find new work.
Immigration is no different from any thing else, when changes happen, those changes rarely benefit everyone. Change usually involves someone benefiting at someone else’s expense. Again, the problem is union wages that hurts a lot more people if they did no existed. It helps a few. I strongly suggest a book entitled "Race and Economics". It does give you a very good historical information on how unions got started and the ulterior motives behind many of them. Today that concept is still applies in cities and counties to help a few and in the long run hurt the most. I liked this book because even though I have read a lot of the information it has I had read it in bits and pieces here and there from many other source. This one puts it all together for easier reading.
The real question is who is benefiting and who is loosing.
In the case of immigration, as the example above, usually it is American workers loosing by way of lower wages and fewer jobs, while business and immigrants benefit. When lower wages happen to ALL once minimum wage is taken out and unions do not control wages either then ALL products and commodities will go down in prices also and that would make us more competitive in the world arena. We all would benefit because just as income may go down so will the milk, the bread, the cars, etc. because businsesses paid less to produce.
The bottom line is that the US should look after its citizens first, and structure its policies to benefit them. I do agree we should look after OUR OWN first. However, I do not think in this case that is the more efficient way. Again, many people and in this forum do act out of emotions instead of looking at it more closely. Again, THERE ARE JOBS that Americans will not take and I do not see a problem with temporary immigrants taking those. I am not referring to other jobs. The problem with this issue is that once I or others mention this those acting on emotions immediately talk as if I am saying all jobs should be open to all immgrants. I do not support that.
Present immigration policy is designed to benefit business at the expense of workers.
In addition the argument that immigration does nothing to hurt American workers is just plain wrong and dishonest.
Immigration can hurt but it can also benefit depending how it is handled. If doors are open for temporary immgrants that can help the economy because areas like harvesting can keep prices down for basic food needs of the people. There are even certain types of skills that many other companies DO complain that Americans are not available to fill those positions. What many have done, outsource! This should not happen and it is embarrasing to see companies try to hire foreign people to come to the US because we do not have enough Americans to fill those jobs. There is something wrong with us not to be able to educate and train people to do many of those jobs. It is embarrasing to see that in many cases illegal immigrant come here with higher education levels than our own kids.
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YES! Nicely said.... Businesses strive to keep costs down (which includes labor costs) as the goal is to make money. If there is cheaper, legal, quality labor available in the market, businesses will seek out that labor just as their competition does. This keeps costs down and prices down. However, if businesses need a harder to find/more specialized skillset, salaries will be higher to reflect the skill supply vs demand and product costs reflect this. I know this is Business 101, yet seems to be a hard concept for some.
