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Consider the source of the poll and article. The poll was performed about an anti-immigration organization, so automatically it's suspect. Also, who was polled, what questions were asked, and how were the answers summarized? The Washington Examiner is a conservative publication known for its biased reporting.
As long as employers can hire cheap labor and not provide a living wage, benefits, and safe working conditions, then immigrants will be hired instead of Americans. It really does come down to money.
I have a friend who pumps septic tanks for a living. In my opinion that is a far worse job than picking vegetables.
Yet you do not see illegal’s pumping septic tanks..... why is that?
Because it pays $500 a day.
I am not crazy about what it costs me to get my tank pumped, but when you have a full tank of waste what are you going to do?
Point is, in a true free economy, absent from floods of immigrant labor to upset the labor/demand equation, all jobs will set their own price.
That may mean you will spend 2 or 3 dollars for a head of lettuce, but the people picking it will be legal citizens and contributing to the economy and overall standard of living.
If you want completely free trade, be ready for the consequences.
Completely free trade will mean you are on a level playing field with the rest of the world.
The workers in the US will make the same wages as in India, China or Mexico.
The standard of living will be the same.
The problems with maintaining infrastructure the same.
The ability of the US to maintain even the lifestyle of its people now is being greatly diminished by free trade.
As it continues, that trend will get worse.
The US cannot bring the living standard of the rest of the world up to 1st world levels, but the rest of the world can bring the US down to 3rd world level.
I am not sure why people come to this country because of what it is, and then want to change it so it becomes what they escaped.
I can understand your observation and I actually do fear the consequences but at the same time as needed consequences.
I present the picture from a historical point of view and the consequences.
First, I think we need to look back when our nation was THE industrial power with no match. We had technology. At the time we did have the same type of employment problem we now have but within out own borders. Do you think that ALL states had great economies? I do not think so. People did migrate to the states where there were better opportunities for better jobs and standard of life improvement.
I do remember when my hometown in Texas had slack manufactoring companies. I worded pressing the seams on the new pants we produced.
However, as time passed by other nations of the world cought up with us in technology. Remember in the 70s and 80s when Japan started to make cars cheaper than ours and also in many case of better quality? Eventually businesses moved where labor was cheaper and nations developed their technology.
That is the reality out there. What you want cannot happen anymore as if we can turn the clock back. In yesteryears labor wages were more affordable to have them even though they hurt the poor in our country to benefit a few others. Wages were artificialy increased and we could get away with it against the rest of the world. They did not have the techonology we had. That is not the case anymore, they have technology and something we no longer have, cheap labor.
Do you think companies move or outsource job if they loose money? No, two factors, either to compete with the rest of the world and to make moer money or both. If moving jobs or operations meant loosing money they would stay where they are.
As much as you may try, when you go and buy any commodity out there, do you look for the American made stuff only or for the less expesnsive item? If you are like most customers you will look for what affects your pocket the least. Do with helping American products in mind as your first criteria? I do not think you do. Why should companies sacrifice business for to help people with the risk of loosing business or even closing down because they cannot make it?
Now, if we let free marke totally free makes me wonder for the following reason. If we do that it does not mean the rest of the world will not do their protectionism and that is unfair also. However, by us doing that we become more competitive.
Lastly, we have lived the good life and the rest of the world is catching. Eventually, artificial wages will not help us because our products cannot compete anymore. Do you want to put a wall around our country and isolate ourselves so outside cheaper products and labor do not affect us? We can't do that. We need the rest of the world as they need us. We all depend on each other for different reasons. What you advocate is happening. Perhaps not to the degree you may want and it is already affecting us. It will not go away. It is here to stay. The smart thing to do is adapt with competing with the rest of the world. We are used to a life that we cannot have. We can still have a good life but if we are stubborn with the way it was, it only delays the inevitable.
I live by the motto "Don't forget where you came from". I have it framed in my office. In my early childhood I have a good life. Later I got to the point of sleeping on the floor. Later it got better but I never forgot my past and when hard times comes I find ways to adapt and enjoy what I have however little I have.
Our nation forgot that as time passed by. Now, we do not want to accept that and not realize we can still have a happy life even if some things are not as good as it used to be. Actually, other nations are starting to have problems like we do because other nations are offering cheaper labor, something they used to provide out there and now find themselves with a higher standard of living. Take care.
I can understand your observation and I actually do fear the consequences but at the same time as needed consequences.
I present the picture from a historical point of view and the consequences.
First, I think we need to look back when our nation was THE industrial power with no match. We had technology. At the time we did have the same type of employment problem we now have but within out own borders. Do you think that ALL states had great economies? I do not think so. People did migrate to the states where there were better opportunities for better jobs and standard of life improvement.
I do remember when my hometown in Texas had slack manufactoring companies. I worded pressing the seams on the new pants we produced.
However, as time passed by other nations of the world cought up with us in technology. Remember in the 70s and 80s when Japan started to make cars cheaper than ours and also in many case of better quality? Eventually businesses moved where labor was cheaper and nations developed their technology.
That is the reality out there. What you want cannot happen anymore as if we can turn the clock back. In yesteryears labor wages were more affordable to have them even though they hurt the poor in our country to benefit a few others. Wages were artificialy increased and we could get away with it against the rest of the world. They did not have the techonology we had. That is not the case anymore, they have technology and something we no longer have, cheap labor.
Do you think companies move or outsource job if they loose money? No, two factors, either to compete with the rest of the world and to make moer money or both. If moving jobs or operations meant loosing money they would stay where they are.
As much as you may try, when you go and buy any commodity out there, do you look for the American made stuff only or for the less expesnsive item? If you are like most customers you will look for what affects your pocket the least. Do with helping American products in mind as your first criteria? I do not think you do. Why should companies sacrifice business for to help people with the risk of loosing business or even closing down because they cannot make it?
Now, if we let free marke totally free makes me wonder for the following reason. If we do that it does not mean the rest of the world will not do their protectionism and that is unfair also. However, by us doing that we become more competitive.
Lastly, we have lived the good life and the rest of the world is catching. Eventually, artificial wages will not help us because our products cannot compete anymore. Do you want to put a wall around our country and isolate ourselves so outside cheaper products and labor do not affect us? We can't do that. We need the rest of the world as they need us. We all depend on each other for different reasons. What you advocate is happening. Perhaps not to the degree you may want and it is already affecting us. It will not go away. It is here to stay. The smart thing to do is adapt with competing with the rest of the world. We are used to a life that we cannot have. We can still have a good life but if we are stubborn with the way it was, it only delays the inevitable.
I live by the motto "Don't forget where you came from". I have it framed in my office. In my early childhood I have a good life. Later I got to the point of sleeping on the floor. Later it got better but I never forgot my past and when hard times comes I find ways to adapt and enjoy what I have however little I have.
Our nation forgot that as time passed by. Now, we do not want to accept that and not realize we can still have a happy life even if some things are not as good as it used to be. Actually, other nations are starting to have problems like we do because other nations are offering cheaper labor, something they used to provide out there and now find themselves with a higher standard of living. Take care.
It is not realistic to look forward, with the rose-colored glasses of the past.
America used to be the land of abundance with more than enough for everyone. Those days have passed.
We have 20 million people who cannot find work. We are not able to support our deteriorating infrastructure. We cannot afford to supplement the burden of immigration. We are seeing people becoming divided, bitter, and violent, and this is only the beginning.
The influx of people now, are just more burden on a government that cannot meet the mandates it already has.
Do you know what happens when you put too many crabs in a bucket? They cannibalize each other. People are not so different.
You are about to witness a time of great strife in this country, and while immigration is not the sole cause, it does add straws to the overburdened camels back.
It is not realistic to look forward, with the rose-colored glasses of the past.
America used to be the land of abundance with more than enough for everyone. Those days have passed.
We have 20 million people who cannot find work. We are not able to support our deteriorating infrastructure. We cannot afford to supplement the burden of immigration. We are seeing people becoming divided, bitter, and violent, and this is only the beginning.
The influx of people now, are just more burden on a government that cannot meet the mandates it already has.
Do you know what happens when you put too many crabs in a bucket? They cannibalize each other. People are not so different.
You are about to witness a time of great strife in this country, and while immigration is not the sole cause, it does add straws to the overburdened camels back.
It may be I who is not communicating clearly. I did not emphazise the "rose-colored glasses of the past". I noted the development of how businesses work.
Yes, we do have many people without work. I simply point that government interference on the business realities tends to make things worse.
Staying with the immigration point I will reiterate that THERE ARE JOBS THAT AMERICANS WILL NOT TAKE. Those jobs can be held by temporary immigrants. I saw again a couple of articles of farmer asking some type of exception for immigrants because their tomatoes will rut in the fields. Many of the illegals they hired left because of the new Alabama immigration law. Do you see Americans now in hordes and lines trying to get those jobs? NO! So they those illegal take their jobs? NO!
By this I am no advocating illegals immigration. I am proposing that some type of program that allows some of those low paying jobs to be opened up for those people that are willing to spend long days in the fields picking tomatoes.
I have no problem if some laws do punish employees for hiring illegals. That is not my point and it has not been since I started to post in this thread. My point is that there are some jobs that Americans do not take and someobody has to do them.
You can suggest that Americans will take them if they are paid higher wages. Well, the economic principles may not allow for that. If you now suggest mandatory artificial wages the customer now pays the price and that is not what business is all about. Also, some other countries may sell their products at lower pricess. What do you suggest now? Protectionism or isolation, historically that will not work.
Many Americans will rather take food stamps than taking some of those jobs. That is why do not see them to those farms begging to take the jobs that the illegals left for fear of getting deported. Take care.
It may be I who is not communicating clearly. I did not emphazise the "rose-colored glasses of the past". I noted the development of how businesses work.
Yes, we do have many people without work. I simply point that government interference on the business realities tends to make things worse.
Staying with the immigration point I will reiterate that THERE ARE JOBS THAT AMERICANS WILL NOT TAKE. Those jobs can be held by temporary immigrants. I saw again a couple of articles of farmer asking some type of exception for immigrants because their tomatoes will rut in the fields. Many of the illegals they hired left because of the new Alabama immigration law. Do you see Americans now in hordes and lines trying to get those jobs? NO! So they those illegal take their jobs? NO!
By this I am no advocating illegals immigration. I am proposing that some type of program that allows some of those low paying jobs to be opened up for those people that are willing to spend long days in the fields picking tomatoes.
I have no problem if some laws do punish employees for hiring illegals. That is not my point and it has not been since I started to post in this thread. My point is that there are some jobs that Americans do not take and someobody has to do them.
You can suggest that Americans will take them if they are paid higher wages. Well, the economic principles may not allow for that. If you now suggest mandatory artificial wages the customer now pays the price and that is not what business is all about. Also, some other countries may sell their products at lower pricess. What do you suggest now? Protectionism or isolation, historically that will not work.
Many Americans will rather take food stamps than taking some of those jobs. That is why do not see them to those farms begging to take the jobs that the illegals left for fear of getting deported. Take care.
You point out many of the factors that lead to the muck and mire we find ourselves in, although you refuse to acknowledge that these things can be changed.
Yes, it is true that many people would rather be unproductive and to collect entitlements than to perform an honest day’s work and gain the self-respect that comes with that. It is true that the country faces price competition from third world countries due to recent trade agreements that benefit corporations at the expense of workers.
However, these things can be easily changed.
To continue to allow the wealthy to exploit the poor in other countries, to expel the jobs base from America, and to promote the welfare that robs our people of their pride and values is not the road to prosperity.
It is the road to the class warfare and degradation of society we see happening around us.
I understand your position as it is motivated by your desire to help your people.
Nevertheless, I have seen what the affects of uncontrolled immigration has done to my country, and it has not been good.
You point out many of the factors that lead to the muck and mire we find ourselves in, although you refuse to acknowledge that these things can be changed.
Yes, it is true that many people would rather be unproductive and to collect entitlements than to perform an honest day’s work and gain the self-respect that comes with that. It is true that the country faces price competition from third world countries due to recent trade agreements that benefit corporations at the expense of workers.
However, these things can be easily changed.
To continue to allow the wealthy to exploit the poor in other countries, to expel the jobs base from America, and to promote the welfare that robs our people of their pride and values is not the road to prosperity.
It is the road to the class warfare and degradation of society we see happening around us.
I understand your position as it is motivated by your desire to help your people.
Nevertheless, I have seen what the affects of uncontrolled immigration has done to my country, and it has not been good.
Please, do not confuse not agreeing with acknowledge. There is a difference.
My desire to help my people? Well, I have to go but if you are referring I am with hispanics, you are wrong and it shows to me that YOU are not reading what I am saying. For all I know immigrants from Africa or Russia can be here to take jobs that Americans do not want. Later I may cover your other points, take care.
I have a friend who pumps septic tanks for a living. In my opinion that is a far worse job than picking vegetables.
Yet you do not see illegal’s pumping septic tanks..... why is that?
Because it pays $500 a day.
I am not crazy about what it costs me to get my tank pumped, but when you have a full tank of waste what are you going to do?
Point is, in a true free economy, absent from floods of immigrant labor to upset the labor/demand equation, all jobs will set their own price.
That may mean you will spend 2 or 3 dollars for a head of lettuce, but the people picking it will be legal citizens and contributing to the economy and overall standard of living.
This is the correct way that free enterprise works. If the tomatoes rot because the farmers can't pay the wages to the people to pick them then they get off their fat asses and go out there and pick them themselves or they go out of business.
My home business is hard to run. I can't afford help. I will go out of business if I don't break my back doing it myself. BUT - I could hire illegal aliens to package the goods for 3.50 per hour - then I can stay in business. Since this would be qualified as "JOBS AMERICANS WONT DO" I can only assume that those who want illegal aliens in here to do "JOBS AMERCIANS WONT DO" that I should seek out some illegal aliens to fill the jobs in my business so I can keep producing products that compete in price to China goods.
This is the correct way that free enterprise works. If the tomatoes rot because the farmers can't pay the wages to the people to pick them then they get off their fat asses and go out there and pick them themselves or they go out of business.
My home business is hard to run. I can't afford help. I will go out of business if I don't break my back doing it myself. BUT - I could hire illegal aliens to package the goods for 3.50 per hour - then I can stay in business. Since this would be qualified as "JOBS AMERICANS WONT DO" I can only assume that those who want illegal aliens in here to do "JOBS AMERCIANS WONT DO" that I should seek out some illegal aliens to fill the jobs in my business so I can keep producing products that compete in price to China goods.
On the first case about tomatoes, easier said then done. Pick tomatoes yourself? What pick a 100 tomatoes or thousands before they rut?!
Go out of business? In that case what happens when less tomatoes are not available? Prices go up and the American people's pockets do hurt.
I do not know if you are referring to me. Just in case you did not read closely I have said I am not for illegal immigration. I will repeat because it seems many in this forum do not want to accept that there are jobs Americans do not accept. Those jobs that cannot get Americans to do, should be open for some type of temporary programs for people from other countries on a seasonal basis. Benefits? Farmers still produce at cheap labor wages and prices stay low for customer pockets. Farmers keep producing and customers paying the least possible.
Mabye you and other can site other jobs like sceptic tanks as examples. Well, if immigrant won't take them, OK, well, Americans are? Great, then no program to bring immigrants to do them.
Another point though. You need to see the whole picture. What is more of a GDP product factor? Tomatoes or scepting tanks? One is a production and the other is a service type job. In other words you compare apples and excretion (well, oranges).
American immigration program originally was designed to open up the doors for people that can benefit our country. We took people with skills to help make this country an economic success. We can still do that. So I reiterate so others do not keep their blinds on and just keep seen "illegal imigration, illegal immigration, illegal immigration".
Seasonal programs worked in the past and can work now. My dad came to this country legally as a seasonal worker and later demonstrated he could be a productive resident and got his residency so I know it can work. Take care.
You point out many of the factors that lead to the muck and mire we find ourselves in, although you refuse to acknowledge that these things can be changed.
Yes, it is true that many people would rather be unproductive and to collect entitlements than to perform an honest day’s work and gain the self-respect that comes with that. It is true that the country faces price competition from third world countries due to recent trade agreements that benefit corporations at the expense of workers.
However, these things can be easily changed.
To continue to allow the wealthy to exploit the poor in other countries, to expel the jobs base from America, and to promote the welfare that robs our people of their pride and values is not the road to prosperity.
It is the road to the class warfare and degradation of society we see happening around us.
I understand your position as it is motivated by your desire to help your people.
Nevertheless, I have seen what the affects of uncontrolled immigration has done to my country, and it has not been good.
Do you buy products as strictly as possible to benefit the American worker regardless of prices? I really doubt it. You as a rational customer will buy the product that benefits your pocket and your home budget. That is what the entreprenour from the little convenience store to the big corporations do, look for the pockets also. Why should they be any different than you?
Have you ever made a comment at home on a product like "I got this really cheap!"? If you considered it cheap, why not then go back to the store owner and tell him you are giving him a few extra dollars to pay what you think is a fair price? Heck no! So why do you and many others expect the business owner or a corporation what YOU consider decent prices or wages? No, free market dictates that.
Do you know that many of the laws in counties across the states are designed to protect certain businesses at the expense of other people?
Whose fault is that? Is it not partly the fault of local elected leaders that approve many of those laws?
Check it out and see why many licencing laws out there had the ulterior motive to impede competition. What that does is simply hurt other people that are trying to make a living. Check out why taxi licences are so expensive in some big cities like I believe NY City.
People think in terms of big corporations. Guess what from small businesses people do try to stop others from making a living with the help of elected leaders and in the end the customer is the one that pays the price. Take care.
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