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Hey All,
Our dog (a miniature schnauzer) has had a fickle stomach for as long as we have had her (less than a year; she's about 2 yrs old.) 1-3x a month, she seems to have loose stool that sometimes ends up in slightly bloody diarrhea. Initially when it first happened, we thought maybe she had eaten something, but we have gotten more diligent about catching her. We thought it was food, so we switched her to homemade and raw. She has been fecal checked several times. When she's healthy, everything is great. When she has these episodes, she is still her regular self, but with poor digestion. During these flare-ups, we generally clear them up with boiled rice, chicken, and a little pectin (in addition to her daily probiotic.)
During her last incident (about 3 weeks ago), she never really got better after about a week of symptom treating. We took her to the vet, and they prescribed Flagl and Hills I/D Low Fat Gastro food. She's gotten better, and is gaining weight. However, I'm not a huge fan of this prescription dog food (corn and chicken by-product.) She is somewhat digesting it, but I think due to bulk of it being filler, and no fiber whatsoever, it is coming out extremely "soft." We know her triggers seem to be fat, and potentially too much fiber. Kind of debating on gradually moving her to something better, just kind of looking for thoughts or opinions.
There's alot more to it from what you're reading on the label. It's specifically made that way to provide FRACTIONALIZED ingredients especially the grains, which are more mild, more digestible, more quickly assimilated, more FIBER and low fat. There is "extra B12" and antioxidants.
I was an adviser for many years on the yahoo megaesophagus board (a neuro / gi disorder) and we see this food being a miracle. It was the only food my mega e dog could keep down and it cured my mother's Lab's IBS.
Now, everyone else will come disagree. Because they never had a deathly ill dog who used it with excellent success. Or ever even tried it for that matter.
And don't use the chicken and rice during a "flare up" use OAT BRAN. Quaker makes it in a red box.
The positive flagyl reaction shows that she has/had something going on in there. Unless it was the food change or stopping junk/treats.
The still soft stool says she may need another round of an antibiotic. Or a different class of antibiotic. There are four classes and they don't all resolve all the same bacteria. Go back to the vet and try to nail this down. OR she has a slight allergy to something in there. There are alot of ingredients so....But if it's FORMED and just soft-ish I would stick with it. PUDDING? NO! It has to be formed like a normal stool to be working correctly and to say that she's on the right path.
NO TREATS especially like rawhides, pig ears etc. NONE. Give her some green beans, they are the most neutral. Some people give pumpkin but that's fiber and can throw things off out of balance.
There is another yahoo site for IBS IBD and they don't play around. Very knowledgable so you should sign up. She's young to face a lifetime of this.
You may be able to find a different food, but the stress of doing so is very heavy on her system especially so soon.
History of HIlls, why vets chose this company to rely on (besides them being almost the ONLY prescription food maker and having an excellent track record:
Pancreatitis, IBS/IBD, Hemorrhagic Gastroenteritis
What exactly happened? Did she "get into" something greasy like ribs or something or did she just all of a sudden get this acute situation this time?
We aren't 100% sure due to her dietary indiscretion. We know fat is one of her triggers, so she rarely gets treats (plain cheerio.) I think this time, it started as the result of some slight constipation. She didn't go one evening, and then the next time was normal, but the following was diarrhea-ish. My wife and I have gotten better about noticing/treating it (we give each other potty reports lol.) Usually at the initial sign of symptoms, we fast for one meal and feed a simple plain meal to clear it up pretty quickly.
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Without going into a rant, I STRONGLY STRONGLY STRONGLY recommend you stick with the ID. Unless there's an allergy.
You didn't read the ingredients correctly, there IS fiber.
The positive flagyl reaction shows that she has/had something going on in there. Unless it was the food change or stopping junk/treats.
The still soft stool says she may need another round of an antibiotic. Or a different class of antibiotic. There are four classes and they don't all resolve all the same bacteria. Go back to the vet and try to nail this down. OR she has a slight allergy to something in there. There are alot of ingredients so....But if it's FORMED and just soft-ish I would stick with it. PUDDING? NO! It has to be formed like a normal stool to be working correctly and to say that she's on the right path.
I understand that there is fiber. It just seemed like it was very low in comparison to any other dog food analysis I've ever seen (I imagine there is a reason.) She is on Hills ID Low Fat GI Restore, which I believe addresses something slightly different from the ID Gastrointestinal Health. i/d® Low Fat GI Restore Canine - Dry
We aren't sure what's causing the episodes. She has been prescribed flagyl/metronidazole on several occasions which clears everything up immediately. We've had numerous fecal tests that have come back negative for anything. We do not feed her any rich treats, and we did raw for a while before switching to home-cooked. It's possible she could an allergy to chicken I suppose, but would that explain the intermittent episodes if she is eating it daily?
In regards to her stool on the prescription dog food, they are soft. Not quite pudding, but maybe like soft-serve icecream (the consistency reminds me of baby food.) I figured by now (~ 3 weeks in), they would've started getting better, but they haven't. She has gained weight (~1.5 lbs) and hasn't had an incident since, so it must be working somewhat. My only concern was that it's contents were leading to these poor stools. On raw, homemade, and even the cheap kibble she came to us with, her stools were much better (which made me question it's efficacy.)
Do you have a link to the yahoo groups you mentioned?
Thanks again for all the help and information.
Last edited by Randmness; 01-23-2014 at 06:06 PM..
We aren't 100% sure due to her dietary indiscretion. We know fat is one of her triggers, so she rarely gets treats (plain cheerio.) I think this time, it started as the result of some slight constipation. She didn't go one evening, and then the next time was normal, but the following was diarrhea-ish. My wife and I have gotten better about noticing/treating it (we give each other potty reports lol.) Usually at the initial sign of symptoms, we fast for one meal and feed a simple plain meal to clear it up pretty quickly.
I understand that there is fiber. It just seemed like it was very low in comparison to any other dog food analysis I've ever seen (I imagine there is a reason.) She is on Hills ID Low Fat GI Restore, which I believe addresses something slightly different from the ID Gastrointestinal Health. i/d® Low Fat GI Restore Canine - Dry
We aren't sure what's causing the episodes. She has been prescribed flagyl/metronidazole on several occasions which clears everything up immediately. We've had numerous fecal tests that have come back negative for anything. We do not feed her any rich treats, and we did raw for a while before switching to home-cooked. It's possible she could an allergy to chicken I suppose, but would that explain the intermittent episodes if she is eating it daily?
In regards to her stool on the prescription dog food, they are soft. Not quite pudding, but maybe like soft-serve icecream (the consistency reminds me of baby food.) I figured by now (~ 3 weeks in), they would've started getting better, but they haven't. She has gained weight (~1.5 lbs) and hasn't had an incident since, so it must be working somewhat. My only concern was that it's contents were leading to these poor stools. On raw, homemade, and even the cheap kibble she came to us with, her stools were much better (which made me question it's efficacy.)
Do you have a link to the yahoo groups you mentioned?
Thanks again for all the help and information.
OK well I totally agree with you that it's the wrong food unless she has an underlying infection that the Flagyl hasn't cleared up. But Flagyl is the GO TO a/b for GI.
Yes that Low Fat Restore is "new" to me so I'm not going to swear on it.
It could be the turkey in it - a cousin to the chicken. OR ANY of the ingredients. My other Bulldog could not eat alot of stuff even FLAX, a known allergen and there is flax in both of those HIlls foods. They are loaded with potential allergens.
Yes, she could be allergic to chicken or even just grocery chicken not organic. Some people here reported that. OK on organic, not ok on grocery. BUT I agree that it would not be intermittent.
Are you ABSOLUTELY sure she is not eating stuff in the yard. They are very fast and clever that way. LIke berries, acorns etc?
Her stool is too soft, IMO. That's bad, she's not absorbing the nutrients. You "could" add oat bran and see but I'm the type of person that wants to get to the bottom of it, not cover it up. There are a million dog foods but it's so scary changing them and takes so long.
What was her stool on raw? Firm? AND did you include the BONE in the RAW diet. (BARF diet or RAW Meaty Bones).
A dog eating raw meaty bones will have a SMALL COMPACT stool, with some white (bone).
Ugh. I would keep going to the vet or to a specialist - Internal Med.
I would probably switch her back to home made sweet potato and a UNIQUE protein she never ate before. Maybe whatever you can find in the grocer like maybe Bison? I see packages of that in our chain. Review this with the VET. You could add green beans, nobody is allergic to them LOL.
You want a STRIPPED DOWN low allergy - "elimination diet". Like they do with humans.
I would also STOP the probiotic for this trial. NOTHING extra.
NOW about the IBD/IBS. They are different. And IBD is really a very specific diagnosis made by endoscopy, taking a bit of the tissue biopsy from the gi and sending it out. SO...if you join Yahoo, tell them you have not done this and are getting this diagnosis as a rule in from your vet and didn't know where to start. Of course tell them about the pancreatitis, too. I'm pretty sure they'll say the bloody diarrhea suggests IBD.
BUT my other Bulldog got bloody stool from eating crap in the yard like berries and did NOT have CHRONIC traditional IBD with the full blown autoimmune thing. Other than his extensive allergies.
Sometimes one thing is primary and the other secondary.
I do not recommend endoscopy unless it's life threatening and it's a risk/benefit thing because there can be problems with the anesthesia and procedure shoving that scope down there.
Here's a board for pancreatitis, join this one, too:
You are subscribing to a message board with posts. You can set your settings to get every post in your email, no posts, or a weekly digest summary of posts. I never got emails I always go ON THE BOARD to read and post but some people like the emails.
They are closed groups meaning they will email you acceptance then you can access the board and the library etc.
Write an introduction post with as much info as you have. Under your signature write her name, age, diagnoses and food. With IBD diagnosis say "suspected" so they don't think it's official by the scope.
I haven't been on the IBD board in a couple of years but I'm sure they will direct you if not there, to another board.
I'm really hoping it's something simple not an immune problem etc but GI is really a big guessing game and trial and error thing.
Good luck and I hope one of these groups can help you. I know on our board, people will do ANYTHING they can to solve a mystery and ask all the questions they can think of to get to it.
You can possibly get a referral to a specialist there, too. Just be careful if they want to do a scope because my dog with mega-e was much worse afterwards. BUT mega e is a throat problem so it was a known risk, not so much with your dog. The board members can give you more advise on the next step regarding a "better diagnosis". They will also advise you if going back to raw but RAW AND BONES...might help or not based on all the member's experiences. Yes the fat is a big problem, tho.
I would say if you switch her to a novel protein and sweet pot and she does NOT GET anything contraband, and she's no better, then you have a more systemic problem like some kind of infection or immune issue or something.
Sorry this is so long and disjointed but I was trying to hit all the points.
Last edited by runswithscissors; 01-23-2014 at 09:08 PM..
PS do NOT let this dog outside off a leash unsupervised for one minute hahaha.
And I would ask the vet about staying on the Flagyl longer until you make some changes in whatever direction you go. We had many members who's dogs virtually lived on it. Usually the dogs with feeding tubes, tho.
I might even ask for a round of BAYTRIL - a strong antibiotic. Ask him. Sometimes this is more effective. Sometimes the antibiotic only kills off CERTAIN bacteria so they look BETTER but then relapse due to not food or anything but due to the remaining bacteria or even an overgrowth situation.
A Shih Tsu I take care of went from Flagyl to Baytril her last episode. Her owner has dementia and causes complete GI havoc in the poor dog, age 17. The Baytril worked perfectly but she had more of a infected colon issue... as it has on our megaesophagus board. IT's the first antibiotic we use because they get so sick so fast.
Last edited by runswithscissors; 01-23-2014 at 08:47 PM..
I believe the vet prescribed the Low Fat GI Restore due to fat being a trigger. It looks like Hill's other option isnt particularly Low Fat. Both have questionable ingredients.
We are pretty sure she is not eating stuff. We initially adopted her in the spring, so we weren't sure (abundance of acorns and berries everywhere.) But now, that it is winter, there's no way she could be picking stuff up. We keep her on a short leash during walks to ensure she doesn't pick anything up.
When she was on raw, her stool was pretty much textbook. Small. Compact. White-ish. When she is healthy, she does great on raw (de-skinned raw chicken thigh, salmon oil, whole egg, very tiny piece of chicken liver.) The only negative against raw, is that if the bone percentages are off just a little, it can cause constipation, which leads to an episode. Once on that epidose, she can't handle much (we fall back to rice and a small amount of raw chicken breast.)
From there, we switched to homemade. That consisted of raw chicken breast, slurry of veggies, rice, salmon oil, tiny bit of chicken liver, and some whole egg. We also added bone meal powder and a probiotic. Her episode occurrence went down, her stools were still fine, but she still had occasional episodes (just not nearly as bad, and quicker to recover from.) However, during her last episode, she didn't recover and lost some considerable weight (which is where we stand today.)
She is gaining weight on the prescription food, which is a good thing, but I dont think she is fully digesting it. For now, I know her triggers are fat, constipation/hard to digest items, and possibly too much protein. It seems like the kibble is easier on her system, which may be lessening the episode occurrence. I've been researching a couple low-fat kibble alternatives to potentially move her from with a similar Protein/Fat/Fiber percentage analysis to the ID stuff she eats now. I'll have to revisit the vet again this weekend.
Thanks for the help again. I'll check out the forums you listed.
Again, the ingredients are only questionable from an allergy perspective. They are in there like they are because they have PROVEN to WORK. NO, not in every single case. If this stuff were "easy" all vets would be able to solve these extensive GI problems with their magic crystal ball.
However,
That's so weird and random, like you said.
I'd blame the THIGH being a heavy fattier part AND organ meats and oil on the raw/homemade from what I remember you only want organ meats once a week (?) they made my mega e dog deathly ill...but who knows. Because she is SO SO sensitive to the bone/meat ratio it's challenging. And...That doesn't explain why it happens on the Hills, still.
From what I remember most people do not JUST give the thigh, although a Mastiff client of mine ate a whole leg quarter daily. I could be wrong, though I haven't visited raw forums in awhile.
I assume that you can't grind up the raw all in one batch from the same source and freeze (like 20 LB of chicken backs) which in theory should all be the same ratio? JUST the meat and bones. (this assuming the vet agrees which they may not out of fear of the "unknown"?).
Is it possible her bone ratio was OFF if the bone was too HARD to chew, in the thigh? So she didn't eat it? (Just flailing at suggestions here.)
I never used bone meal. IMO that would be constipating. It's a processed dry thing. It's not the "live" BONE.
I used my Kitchenaid meat grinder attachment for grinding the bone and meat together. BACKS/RIBS.
I agree that since she was "better" on the cheap kibble, that implies a very low tolerance for rich foods and while nobody knows why exactly in her case, it has to be respected to keep her "alive" "not sick".
I'd be doing the same thing as you if I didn't want to go to an elimination diet randomly. IT's all scary.
TBH I just spent a month searching for equivalent food for my 17 year old client to build weight with the same ID analysis like you're doing. It's REALLY hard to find. The ONLY one I could find was Science Diet Senior Toy Breed. (different situation than yours, just sayin' I sympathize with the search).
In HER case, I can add weight with Satin Balls which would NOT be recommended for your dog I'm quite sure..and cautionary for mine due to age. Her system is FINE with them, because she doesn't have any real problems like your dog. Just her owner!
The beauty of those forums is that they don't allow alot of "fake advise" for lack of a better term, so everyone is careful to not be a dismissive food nazi LOL. And USUALLY you'll find people that say "YEP the same thing happened to me and I did [such and such]".
I hope you can get to the bottom of it, I hate a mystery!
We initially started with chicken thigh as it seems to have an ideal ratio of meat to bone. She does eat the bone, but it's really a matter of trying to get the percentages right. Both the chicken liver and salmon oil were given in small amounts (much less than their recommended percentages.)
The only reason we added bone meal to the homemade diet, was for calcium (since chicken breast has none.) It also allowed us to give a consistent and stable amount (unlike chopped thigh w/ bone.)
I think for the time being, we are done with raw and homemade. She did well on both, but her system is too unstable to reliably feed them. Every meal needs to be delicately balanced, which is something I dont think we can provide with these homemade options.
I'm thinking of continuing the prescription food for another week or two, and slowly move her to something else.
The ID Low Fat GI Restore breaks down as follows:
Primary Contents: Corn Starch, Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Whole Grain Wheat, Chicken By-Product Meal, Chicken Liver Flavor, Flaxseed, Oat Groats
25% Protein, 7% Fat, 59% Carbs, 1.7% Crude Fiber
She has to eat a low fat diet (~10% or lower) regardless. I'm kind of leading towards the Wellness Core brand as it seems to be one of the highest rated dog foods around (all 4 are highly rated and available at the local Petco/Petsmart.) I had high hopes for raw/homemade, but it isn't working out.
She has to eat a low fat diet (~10% or lower) regardless. I'm kind of leading towards the Wellness Core brand as it seems to be one of the highest rated dog foods around (all 4 are highly rated and available at the local Petco/Petsmart.) I had high hopes for raw/homemade, but it isn't working out.
See that's what I mean, it's so frustrating. The low fat is so important, yet the lowest in fat is higher protein.
I would go with the Small Breed one because of the lower protein. That 33% scares me. Those PEAS!
I can tell you right now that ALL my GI-ish dogs on Blue have a wet-ish too soft stool (but formed). So yeah, I'd avoid those.
I used California Natural for years. It's Natura parent company. (also Innova)
Take a look around at their foods. They have ALOT. Even Kangaroo Looking quickly, I think only these two meet your criteria perfectly. I'm surprised because I thought that senior might work but I don't think so.
Thanks again for the help. I will definitely check those out.
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