I can't find a studio apartment for under $700 (Denver, Aurora: real estate, renting)

[ponyupgrl]

Originally Posted by wilberry

There it is, the answer to living in Denver. Dual income no kids , In the future there will be no children in Denver . Way back in the late 70's most apts in Denver proper did not allow children . I see a return to those halcyon days.

Well, the idea is that you do that until you save a nice down payment, then buy a house with a reasonable monthly mortgage payment, and have the kids :-P

[illinoisphotographer]

Originally Posted by Westerner92

Since you're not willing to talk in hard numbers, I will. An income of over $50K a year puts you in the top 10% of earners in their mid 20s. $50K post tax, health insurance premiums, and maxing out your company 401(k) match will give you a take home of about $3000/month if you're lucky. Say your parents aren't wealthy and didn't give you a car, you buy a modest used Honda Civic. Car payment + car insurance + gas = $250/month. Say you don't care if you live in the suburbs and never go out with friends or have any hobbies aside from going to the gym ($40/month), so you rent a 1 bed in Aurora in one of those generic apartment complexes where your yard is a parking lot. That'll run you $1200 a month including utilities. You never eat out, and you eat cheaply: $200/month. You're on your own cell phone plan with a paid-off phone: $40/month. You don't have TV, but you have the internet because it's effectively a necessity now: $40/month.

Say you never have car troubles, don't have any student debt, have perfect health, never travel, don't have any hobbies, don't have any family emergencies, you never break anything, and you're best friends with the property manager who never raises your rent. That allows you sock back every bit of your leftover income. That nets you $14,760 of savings a year. Your meager pay raises are eaten up by inflation every year btw.

You want a modest townhouse or condo, $250K in 2017 dollars, which puts the down payment at $50K. But since you don't have $50K, it'll take you a few years to save up. Assuming a modest 5%/year home value appreciation, that means that in 5 years, that same condo is $319K, but you'll have enough. Assuming the ~10% appreciation rate the past couple years holds, it'll take you an extra year of unheard of luck, miserable spartan existence, and 90th percentile income to afford it.

The above is obviously just a demonstration, but it should drive home the point that you can't live in today's America without roommates.

And I guess I shouldn't have said "never" in my first post. It's just incredibly dumb and an almost unheard of luxury to live without roommates. There are also financing options beyond the traditional 20% down 30-year mortgage. I'm one of the lucky ones, and I'll be able to afford a home soon, but if I want to avoid being house poor, I will still have to take on roommates. Literally no one I know my age, even business consultants and engineers living in cheap Sunbelt cities, lives alone.

One thing you're missing: You can't take a nationwide salary study and apply it to a higher COL place like Denver. My first job out of college was $48k in 2012, but I was in the Chicago suburbs. There's no way in hell $50k would put me in the top 10% of earners in their 20's in Chicago, nor Denver. Most of my friends are making at least upper 50's or low 60's. A few of us are now "Sr" level and making upper 60's or lower 70's and two guys I know are now managers making in the 80's or more. All of us are in our mid to late 20's now.

So while my answer is that $50k isn't a bad salary, it's not putting you anywhere near the top 10% of earners in their 20's in Denver or any other major city.

Also, the bolded. Stop relying on pay raises to get ahead. You'll never win. Either work with your manager to get a promotion or start looking elsewhere. I got a $10k (20%) pay bump from my first company to my 2nd company. 2 years later, I got a $6000 (10%) promotion. I've been at my company for a little over 3 years now. If I don't get a bump to $75k within the next year or two, I'll start looking outside for the right $80k position. I'm personally at a point where I'm a full-time remote employee, have a decent salary and benefits and like the people I work with. An extra $5-10k/year isn't worth the stress of driving into the office 5x a week. Money isn't everything.

[pikabike]

Originally Posted by ponyupgrl

Well, the idea is that you do that until you save a nice down payment, then buy a house with a reasonable monthly mortgage payment, and have the kids :-P

And in that order! None of this having kids first (and dogs), then begging for help because no jobs, about to be evicted, having “some substance use issues but getting them under control”, etcetcetc.

[SkyDog77]

Originally Posted by wilberry

There it is, the answer to living in Denver. Dual income no kids , In the future there will be no children in Denver . Way back in the late 70's most apts in Denver proper did not allow children . I see a return to those halcyon days.

It’s amazing how fast that dual income no kids changes to 1.25 incomes and 2.5 kids after you pull the trigger on the house.

[illinoisphotographer]

Originally Posted by SkyDog77

It’s amazing how fast that dual income no kids changes to 1.25 incomes and 2.5 kids after you pull the trigger on the house.

I wonder how the correlation is for those who bought houses before marriage vs those who got houses after.

Personally, I'm not married, but my mortgage on my 3br/2.5ba is roughly the same as what we were paying for a 2br apartment.

That, and I'm renovating the bathrooms and kitchen to be exactly how I want it, not some mass-produced cheapo construction that's in most apartments.

[ponyupgrl]

Originally Posted by illinoisphotographer

One thing you're missing: You can't take a nationwide salary study and apply it to a higher COL place like Denver. My first job out of college was $48k in 2012, but I was in the Chicago suburbs. There's no way in hell $50k would put me in the top 10% of earners in their 20's in Chicago, nor Denver. Most of my friends are making at least upper 50's or low 60's. A few of us are now "Sr" level and making upper 60's or lower 70's and two guys I know are now managers making in the 80's or more. All of us are in our mid to late 20's now.

So while my answer is that $50k isn't a bad salary, it's not putting you anywhere near the top 10% of earners in their 20's in Denver or any other major city.

Also, the bolded. Stop relying on pay raises to get ahead. You'll never win. Either work with your manager to get a promotion or start looking elsewhere. I got a $10k (20%) pay bump from my first company to my 2nd company. 2 years later, I got a $6000 (10%) promotion. I've been at my company for a little over 3 years now. If I don't get a bump to $75k within the next year or two, I'll start looking outside for the right $80k position. I'm personally at a point where I'm a full-time remote employee, have a decent salary and benefits and like the people I work with. An extra $5-10k/year isn't worth the stress of driving into the office 5x a week. Money isn't everything.

Very true - in fact, $47k / year as a single person qualifies you for low income housing in Stapleton - All About Low Income Affordable Housing in Stapleton Denver

[Westerner92]

Originally Posted by illinoisphotographer

One thing you're missing: You can't take a nationwide salary study and apply it to a higher COL place like Denver. My first job out of college was $48k in 2012, but I was in the Chicago suburbs. There's no way in hell $50k would put me in the top 10% of earners in their 20's in Chicago, nor Denver. Most of my friends are making at least upper 50's or low 60's. A few of us are now "Sr" level and making upper 60's or lower 70's and two guys I know are now managers making in the 80's or more. All of us are in our mid to late 20's now.

So while my answer is that $50k isn't a bad salary, it's not putting you anywhere near the top 10% of earners in their 20's in Denver or any other major city.

Also, the bolded. Stop relying on pay raises to get ahead. You'll never win. Either work with your manager to get a promotion or start looking elsewhere. I got a $10k (20%) pay bump from my first company to my 2nd company. 2 years later, I got a $6000 (10%) promotion. I've been at my company for a little over 3 years now. If I don't get a bump to $75k within the next year or two, I'll start looking outside for the right $80k position. I'm personally at a point where I'm a full-time remote employee, have a decent salary and benefits and like the people I work with. An extra $5-10k/year isn't worth the stress of driving into the office 5x a week. Money isn't everything.

One thing you're missing: Sample bias. Of course highly paid college grads are surrounded by anecdotes of highly paid college grads. That doesn't change the fact that, according to the Census Bureau, your income in your late 20s is a standard deviation above the median household income (that's for all ages and includes households with multiple incomes) in the Chicago metro, which is $59,261. Unless you can convince me the US Census Bureau's data is bogus, your anecdote is meaningless.

My blinders fell off when my current position put me on projects in working class areas where I had to take income surveys of the people I supervised. Americans across all income levels have a tendency to think they're the average because we're all so socioeconomically segregated.

Also, you shouldn't have to jump around companies or have side gigs to get proper compensation if you work for ethical companies. I lucked out and found one of the few ethical firms in my field left, and it's mostly because it's employee owned. Our generation is being played for suckers, and you're playing right into it. So are all these people who have convinced themselves that only elite college grads with "hustle" should be able to afford property and build wealth.

[Brianmedia]

Originally Posted by illinoisphotographer

Also, the bolded. Stop relying on pay raises to get ahead. You'll never win. Either work with your manager to get a promotion or start looking elsewhere. I got a $10k (20%) pay bump from my first company to my 2nd company. 2 years later, I got a $6000 (10%) promotion. I've been at my company for a little over 3 years now. If I don't get a bump to $75k within the next year or two, I'll start looking outside for the right $80k position. I'm personally at a point where I'm a full-time remote employee, have a decent salary and benefits and like the people I work with. An extra $5-10k/year isn't worth the stress of driving into the office 5x a week. Money isn't everything.

THIS. Spot on. You can't rely on simple raises alone. I make 40% more than i did 4yrs ago with a combination of 2 new jobs and 2 promotions.

You can hustle and make even more. Become a SME or knowledgable in something specific and use that to make side income. I pull in an extra $500-$1000 a month doing about 4-6 hrs a week. Almost everyone can do this, but some are content with normal job and don't want to do anything more outside of the 9-5, which is perfectly fine.

[SkyDog77]

Originally Posted by illinoisphotographer

I wonder how the correlation is for those who bought houses before marriage vs those who got houses after.

Personally, I'm not married, but my mortgage on my 3br/2.5ba is roughly the same as what we were paying for a 2br apartment.

That, and I'm renovating the bathrooms and kitchen to be exactly how I want it, not some mass-produced cheapo construction that's in most apartments.

I bought my first house, a 1906 build that hadn’t been remodeled since the 1960s, in West Wash Park when I was 27. My then girlfriend’s , now wife’s, income certainly made that buy possible. I got married when I was 30 and had our first kid when I was 34.

The house was $360K in 2004 and I spent another $50K on remodeling. It was a 3br 2ba that we took to 2br 2ba with the remodel.

[wilberry]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvgN5gCuLac

we all need a place for our stuff