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Location: northern Vermont - previously NM, WA, & MA
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So this is just to generate a discussion, but Denver seems to be missing a light rail line connecting urban nodes in and around the city. Many of the existing and future Fastracks lines are very park and ride based funneling commuters into downtown which is great but outside of getting to Downtown and LoDo are many of the city's busiest and most walkable urban neighborhoods that are totally missed.
Do you think Denver would do well with a 6-7 miles urban light rail line that maybe started downtown and running down E. Colfax and then heading south down Colorado Blvd connecting with the existing Colorado Blvd station at I-25? This could either be grade level, elevated, or subway in parts, or perhaps even a streetcar.
How far off do you think a proposal or construction of such an endeavor would be? Maybe 2030? Are the costs astronomical? Would a better urban route on another street be better suited? Or is this idea just too expensive and totally unnecessary? Are busses doing the job just fine and will continue to in the future? What do you think?
Last edited by Champ le monstre du lac; 03-01-2014 at 10:04 AM..
Denver's Light Rail is very much centered on park & ride to downtown for several reasons.
Most of the ROW is existing rail ROW or along side highway reconstruction.
The downside to building transportation corridors AFTER the city is built up is there is a lot less options for cost effective routing. Also the financing required taxing the WHOLE metro area is so to get votes it needed to serve suburban park and ride. There has been talk for years about a street car line on Colfax but the reality is the street cars would be in the same traffic as the buses. Colfax is a heavily built up commercial area and there just is not room to add dedicated lanes for BRT or Streetcars.
Location: northern Vermont - previously NM, WA, & MA
10,749 posts, read 23,819,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddyline
Denver's Light Rail is very much centered on park & ride to downtown for several reasons.
Most of the ROW is existing rail ROW or along side highway reconstruction.
The downside to building transportation corridors AFTER the city is built up is there is a lot less options for cost effective routing. Also the financing required taxing the WHOLE metro area is so to get votes it needed to serve suburban park and ride. There has been talk for years about a street car line on Colfax but the reality is the street cars would be in the same traffic as the buses. Colfax is a heavily built up commercial area and there just is not room to add dedicated lanes for BRT or Streetcars.
Minneapolis is nearing completion of construction to its new light rail down a fairly similar built up boulevard to downtown St Paul. http://tinyurl.com/kmon9vr
Last edited by Mike from back east; 03-01-2014 at 03:15 PM..
Reason: Fixing link
Denver's Light Rail is very much centered on park & ride to downtown for several reasons.
Most of the ROW is existing rail ROW or along side highway reconstruction.
The downside to building transportation corridors AFTER the city is built up is there is a lot less options for cost effective routing. Also the financing required taxing the WHOLE metro area is so to get votes it needed to serve suburban park and ride. There has been talk for years about a street car line on Colfax but the reality is the street cars would be in the same traffic as the buses. Colfax is a heavily built up commercial area and there just is not room to add dedicated lanes for BRT or Streetcars.
Eddyline pretty much nails it. Our system was designed more around current RoW and ToD than actual density and need. It's a double edged sword. On one hand, ToD can be a powerful tool, especially in a city like Denver where "if you builld it, they will come." On the other hand, we fail to serve the needs of those in more dense areas or in poorer areas where the cost of cars can be prohibitive.
But building down Colfax or Colorado or Broadway or even a cross town route like Speer / Leetsdale / Parker cuts right through some heavily trafficked areas that would require a complete redesign...which would of course interfere with the very businesses and homes along those routes. If we had a solution that could actually solve those issues, I'd love to see a Colfax line of some sort...but short of an all too expensive subway or elevated, our best option is a train (or BRT with dedicated RoW) that only stops every mile and has full priority at all lights...otherwise there's not a lot of difference between a streetcar and today's all too packed busses for the price. It doesn't help that Colfax is a relatively narrow street for the amount of traffic it carries and that doesn't leave much room for a dedicated RoW.
I think Broadway might make a good candidate for a rapid busline with dedicated RoW, but I suspect current planners don't see the numbers to support it right now. All that in addition to where the money comes from, and unfortunately a lot of that money comes from the 'burbs.
Sadly, until we can come up with a non-cost prohibitive method of laying down some heavier transport options without disrupting businesses and homes in those areas, I don't see it happening...but it shouldn't mean we can't keep looking for a way.
Minnesota probably has a different way of financing, too. It'd be a hard sell to the suburbanites, and the city probably couldn't finance it themselves.
Last edited by Mike from back east; 03-01-2014 at 03:16 PM..
So this is just to generate a discussion, but Denver seems to be missing a light rail line connecting urban nodes in and around the city. Many of the existing and future Fastracks lines are very park and ride based funneling commuters into downtown which is great but outside of getting to Downtown and LoDo are many of the city's busiest and most walkable urban neighborhoods that are totally missed.
Do you think Denver would do well with a 6-7 miles urban light rail line that maybe started downtown and running down E. Colfax and then heading south down Colorado Blvd connecting with the existing Colorado Blvd station at I-25? This could either be grade level, elevated, or subway in parts, or perhaps even a streetcar.
How far off do you think a proposal or construction of such an endeavor would be? Maybe 2030? Are the costs astronomical? Would a better urban route on another street be better suited? Or is this idea just too expensive and totally unnecessary? Are busses doing the job just fine and will continue to in the future? What do you think?
At the present time the rail station on the SE, SW and W rail lines are about equal locating in the suburbs and the City of Denver. Denver has more, I think by one station.
The Current construction of heavy rail with East Rail line will bring significantly more rail station in Denver and some in Aurora. The Heavy Rail Line, The Gold Line, will bring one more station into the city but more in unincorporated Adams County, Arvada and One in Wheat Ridge.
The I--225 light rail Extension will bring all the stations into Aurora. and the Central Corridor light rail Extension will add 2 more station in Denver.
The Heavy Rail North line with the initial buildout will bring one station into Denver and one into Commerce City.
So, the current system and that which is being built in the near future equally serves the City and Denver and the Suburbs. The City of Denver has more bus routes than the suburbs. The suburbs and Denver are well served by buses with the same route running in and out of Denver.
Street Cars, as other posters have pointed out, will not really give better service than buses. As it has been said, there is not space for the Right of Way. We tend to forget that when streetcars were the main means of public transit, cars were much less, and it was less of a problem to have a dedicated street car line. Today there are more cars competing for that limited space. We can restrict auto travel on some roads and have more room for street cars but that idea would not be popular.
With the expansion of public transit, with many projects, over the past 40 years, the idea of streetcars have been discussed, digested and demolished as not being goods option. So, your ideas are not new to we that were and are involved over these many decades.
The light rail that operates in the dense downtown, essentially operated similar to a street car with stations closer together and rail along the roads.
The most walkable areas of the city are well served by buses. So, what neighborhoods are you talking about? Cherry Creek is well served. There is amble buses on Colorado and Colfax but certainly too much cars. There is no space for street cars on these roads unless you reduce auto traffic. However, many people will NEVER get out of their cars unless they are forced by restrictions.
I take the buses and rail often and I get around very well to all the neighborhoods of Denver. If you do not take public transit often, are you just making an observation out of the window of your car?
As I said I use the system often and it is more difficult to get around in many suburban areas on public transit, not the city. The spoke and wheel is designed to get the the commuter to Downtown and the DTC but not so much for cross suburban public transit. I do get around nicely in many areas of the suburbs where there is demand to justify service and with the expansion of Call-n-Rides and feeder buses to suburban stations it has got much better. Yet, service needs demand and with the more passionate auto centric drivers in the suburbs who will never be pried out of their car, demand is slow to develop so service is hard to justify.
The best choice for many is to live what your lifestyle requires. If you like public transit, live in an area where it is well serviced. If you never or infrequently use public transit then you do not care and would not know how it serves residents who need it always as their only means of transit and who use it often.
Livecontent
Last edited by livecontent; 03-01-2014 at 06:08 PM..
Any streetcar line on Colfax would seemingly be a mistake. The bus does well enough, and is the most flexible option- it can be rerouted easily and operates fine on the existing road. Yes, the bus is the least sexy/quaint option. But it is the most realistic and provides the best service.
The Minneapolis-St. Paul Green Line down University Avenue merely replaced the #16 bus (regular and limited stops) that did very well as it was. From what I understand, many businesses were severely pained by the 3 year shutdown of University Avenue. They did receive small payments, but the amounts were paltry. Growing pains of the city, I guess....
Cleveland's Euclid Avenue has a nice dedicated bus lane that allows for express service. I rode it this summer and it was packed to about 3 miles from downtown.
Streetcars are an option that seems quaint and romantic, but would be a serious traffic snarl on Colfax. The St. Charles streetcar in New Orleans is effective, but operates on a wide median and doesn't interfere with traffic.
Colfax would need a lot of tweaking to make streetcars or BRT work. It is pretty well developed as is, and improved transit might actually reduce foot traffic on the street. Yet, a streetcar is the type of thing they tout that would help bring conventions to town and would cement Denver's place among the "elite" US cities. To me, there is no need.....the city is beyond needing the validation of a streetcar.
The article about Minneapolis was interesting. The "compromise" the Metro Council reached with the U of MN was for them to do it Metro Council's way! Their compromise with Minnesota Public Radio was to do it MPR's way. Very interesting.
The funding was different than here in CO. The state legislature there raised the taxes. Our legislature can't do that.
Location: northern Vermont - previously NM, WA, & MA
10,749 posts, read 23,819,647 times
Reputation: 14665
OK, so I get the idea by now that it wouldn't work well financially in terms of funding and such a prospect wouldn't be in the cards in the next 10-15 years and beyond that who knows. I also see the biggest hurdle would be to get suburban backing for what is essentially an internal Denver intra-city line. Are there any corridors and particular streets in Denver where this idea might be feasible or do you think busses have everything legitimately covered for now and in the future?
Last edited by Champ le monstre du lac; 03-02-2014 at 09:47 AM..
OK, so I get the idea by now that it wouldn't work well financially in terms of funding and such a prospect wouldn't be in the cards in the next 10-15 years and beyond that who knows. I also see the biggest hurdle would be to get suburban backing for what is essentially an internal Denver intra-city line. Are there any corridors and particular streets in Denver where this idea might be feasible or do you think busses have everything legitimately covered for now and in the future?
Why are you ascertaining that streetcars technology is even necessary? Are you in love with some fanciful idea of the past.
And why are making an assumption that it is "essentially an intra-city line" when many suburban areas would have the same conditions and needs?
There are many areas of the suburbs that are more city like than many areas of Denver and there are many areas of Denver that have suburban characteristics.
There are many suburban areas that are dense enough and have the populace willing to use public transit as the city; then similar transit would apply.
You seem to have a big issue with some perceived incorrect notions of the suburbs against the city and the city against the suburbs in transit policies and planning. Our system is called the Regional Transportation District encompassing many counties and cities.
I suggest you spend some time exploring these issues at the Denver Regional Council of Government, called DR. COG. https://www.drcog.org/ and specifically you can get vast amount of information about transit planning and policies for this area https://www.drcog.org/index.cfm?page=Transportation
What you will find, there is more cooperation than you know. Yes, there of course, competition for limited funding and grants, as in all issues, but it is not always Denver competing against the suburbs; it is also suburbs competing against suburbs. Yet, you will see the cooperative efforts and that is why DR. COG exist.
Livecontent
Last edited by livecontent; 03-02-2014 at 12:28 PM..
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