Residents, would you reccomend Columbus over Cincinnati or Cleveland (Lorain: 2015, employment)
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I was wondering if there was anyone on these boards that was going to need a little more "policing" than others.
What a joke. Some individual patently ignorant and obviously hubristic proclaims an ability to "police" an entire state forum.
IMO, you've proven yourself already to be poorly informed about Cincinnati, let alone Columbus or Cleveland with just a day's worth of postings. What again gives you the right to police the Ohio forum? Clearly, it's not the accuracy of your posts.
Also, as your posts well prove, residents of communities often are not well informed about their own communities, especially in relation to other communities. You didn't even know the actual Hamilton County sales tax rate when comparing it with those in Franklin and Cuyahoga Counties. That it's not a big deal to you is so very Trumpian -- just go on to your next fallacious comment while claiming your superior knowledge to other posters in this forum. What an offensive and unwanted sham.
A friend who has lived in Columbus for decades attended the dedication of the recent Columbus Museum of Art expansion. The then mayor of Columbus said that the Columbus Museum of Art was now one of the great art museums in the nation. My friend, who actually contributes significant funds to the Columbus Museum of Art, cringed in astonishment, and was so concerned that the mayor would embarrass himself and Columbus by repeating his comment around the nation, that he wrote a letter to the mayor expressing his concerns and explaining why the mayor was uninformed about the relative quality of the Columbus Museum of Art.
I'm much more knowledgeable about Columbus attractions than most Columbus natives that I know. I'm also aware of a life-long Columbus resident who actually travels extensively in Ohio. She didn't believe it when she was told that Cleveland has a significant rail rapid system, and expressed her astonishment when she eventually rode on it from the large West 150th/Puritas free park 'n ride lot, to the Tower City rail transit hub, before transferring to the Waterfront Line to be delivered just outside an entrance to First Energy Field. The availability of that West 150th park 'n ride just off I-71 and RTA day passes is a wonderful tip to Columbus natives visiting Cleveland pro sports venues (a pedestrian walkway takes Tower City transit passengers directly to Quicken Loans Arena and Progressive Field), Playhouse Square, University Circle attractions or even Little Italy or Shaker Square restaurants. How many Columbus natives know anything about Cleveland's RTA rapids???
Someone who claims the right to "police" a thread because of his self-proclaimed superior knowledge of Ohio should not make gross factual mistakes, ever. Your ignorance extends well beyond not knowing the actual sales tax rate in Hamilton County, while saying you were from Cincinnati, and clearly not knowing why the sales tax rates are higher in Cleveland's Cuyahoga County and Columbus' Franklin County than in Hamilton County.
And the historic and architectural wonders of Cleveland's West Side Market totally escaped your understanding. See post 10 and the replies in this thread.
Nobody is trolling Columbus. What you actually object to too often as trolling are well substantiated posts, not the biased statements of opinion of which you are so enamored, that objectively discuss Columbus. When posts in this forum falsely aggrandize Columbus at the expense of peer cities, too typically Cleveland and to a lesser extent Cincinnati, you and other posters object to objective responses debunking those posts.
Admittedly, bjimmy's posts may be subjective comments based on his experiences living in Cleveland, Columbus, and Boston, but how are those less unfair than IMO your more inaccurate and biased posts of your subjective opinions???
Time after time, certainly in recent months, Columbus posters in this forum, certainly in this thread, with obviously relatively little knowledge of Cleveland, have made patently inaccurate and even emotionally charged disparaging comments about Cleveland.
Heck, I make negative comments about Cleveland's economic future (the Republican toll road, the negative impact of the global value-added tax regime on Ohio's manufacturing economy, the unchecked dumping of manure by an expanding corporate livestock industry in the Maumee River basin and the resulting pollution of Lake Erie, Republican budget and tax law changes that have imperiled mass transit funding in Greater Cleveland and throughout Ohio, the gutting of local government funding by the Kasich administration), but these are based on facts which I can document.
If, as is done repeatedly in this thread, a poster wants to make the false accusation that the Cleveland MSA relative to the Columbus MSA isn't booming (neither are booming, but the Greater Cleveland GDP is larger and currently growing faster than the Greater Columbus GDP; FACT), or that the imminently acclaimed and remarkably successful PlayhouseSquare theater district in Cleveland has no impact on the Cleveland economy, you would have us ignore these falsities.
WHY??? Is it better for Columbus to live in a dreamland?
Also your post, as is too typical of your posts, is filled with false straw man arguments. Clearly bjimmy24 doesn't remotely spend all of his " free time trashing cities" he doesn't live in, and he's certainly entitled to make subjective, even arguably objective comments, about Columbus given the reality that he lived in Columbus for several years. He's repeatedly explained for years why he lives in Boston, and not in Cleveland or Columbus, and the reasons are different between Columbus and Cleveland.
Persons such as me and bjimmy24 who value greatly superior cultural amenities, or the major pro sports, always will want to live in a city more like Boston and Cleveland and less like Columbus. It's disingenuous on your part to claim that the expression of this objective reality is "trolling" or "trashing." BTW, I've never seen bjimmy24 say that Cleveland wasn't attractive to him or that he wouldn't want to live there. He just found better job opportunities and subsequently romance in Boston. That happens.
TLDR
What you guys, the self-proclaimed arbiters of culture, fail to be honest about, is that when it comes to Ohio, people are making a choice. That choice isn’t Cleveland, and that reality is not changing anytime soon. Its glory days are over and you’re not going to find success trying to shame people for liking other cities better. Jimmy finding greater things in Boston? What do you think all those former Clevelanders are finding in Columbus? For a lot of them, they just found more too. That might get you outraged and indignant, and send you flying into these long-winded speeches that people really don’t read, but you’d be better off spending that energy building those things there to keep and attract more residents. I’m not the bad guy for stating the obvious.
TLDR
What you guys, the self-proclaimed arbiters of culture, fail to be honest about, is that when it comes to Ohio, people are making a choice. That choice isn’t Cleveland, and that reality is not changing anytime soon. Its glory days are over and you’re not going to find success trying to shame people for liking other cities better. Jimmy finding greater things in Boston? What do you think all those former Clevelanders are finding in Columbus? For a lot of them, they just found more too. That might get you outraged and indignant, and send you flying into these long-winded speeches that people really don’t read, but you’d be better off spending that energy building those things there to keep and attract more residents. I’m not the bad guy for stating the obvious.
How do you know why Columbus has an advantage in net migration from Cleveland? A couple likely explanations are Greater Clevelanders moving to Columbus to attend Ohio State or to work in state government. What is the annual migration deficit? A few thousand persons (no, I don't have the time to research it as I've already wasted too much time today responding to factually ignorant comments on the C-D Ohio forum on all matter of subjects)? As you've raised the point, post a link to the most recent Census Bureau research.
Whether you will ever admit it or not, nobody ever moved to Columbus from Cleveland for superior cultural institutions, for better pro sports, or to get away from Lake Erie.
And what a joke to say that Cleveland's glory days are over, especially relative to Columbus. I'm not even certain that's a true statement today, given the Cleveland hosted the Republican National Convention to great acclaim, Cleveland cultural institutions receive regular critical acclaim from national news media such as the New York Times, and Cleveland pro sports teams have been in the national and global sports spotlight for years. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum is an international attraction, and Cleveland is in the global focus when it hosts the annual induction ceremony. I know that downtown Cleveland's physical amenities and the city's cultural institutions have never been better than they are today. The 21st century physical renovations of Public Square, of the Cleveland Museum of Art, of Severance Hall, of Blossom Music Center, and of Playhouse Square theaters, have been widely acclaimed and are stellar. As always, I would tell anyone considering our relative objectivity to visit the comparable cultural institutions, attractions, and pro sports venues, in both cities to decide on their own the relative strength of our arguments. Ride mass transit systems in both cities. Visit both MSAs' parks, suburbs and Lake Erie. Then consider the strength of our relative arguments.
And what makes you think I'm outraged responding to you? I doubt that bjimmy nor I are any more outraged responding to your Cleveland digs relative to Columbus than we would be responding to a four-year-old who thinks 2 +2 eguals 4 (that's IMO). To me, it's just tedious nonsense that I would feel guilty to let stand without reply. I don't want to "shame" anyone. I just don't want persons inaccurately, unfairly, even ridiculously belittling Cleveland in order to aggrandize Columbus, just as you've once again done with your post.
And who knows for certain what the future holds for Cleveland, Columbus, Ohio, or the U.S. in its entirety? Candidly, I'm very pessimistic, because of man-made climate change but also for other reasons, including massive federal debt and unfunded liabilities, infrastructure decay, declining relative economic competitiveness, massive and unrelenting current account deficits, and massive governmental pension and retiree medical plan funding deficiencies.
What's great about Columbus relative to Cleveland, such as Ohio State athletics or the new Dinosaur Gallery at COSI, I rave about in this forum, in the Ohio forum, and even in the Cleveland forum (see post 13 in the following thread). I repeatedly have addressed the massive economic foundation provided to the Columbus economy by being the state capital, a significantly beneficial reality that you bizarrely have tried to dismiss.
Yet you once again demonstrate with this most recent post why persons feel a necessity to respond to ignorant and biased comments in the Columbus forum.
TLDR
What you guys, the self-proclaimed arbiters of culture, fail to be honest about, is that when it comes to Ohio, people are making a choice. That choice isn’t Cleveland, and that reality is not changing anytime soon. Its glory days are over and you’re not going to find success trying to shame people for liking other cities better. Jimmy finding greater things in Boston? What do you think all those former Clevelanders are finding in Columbus? For a lot of them, they just found more too. That might get you outraged and indignant, and send you flying into these long-winded speeches that people really don’t read, but you’d be better off spending that energy building those things there to keep and attract more residents. I’m not the bad guy for stating the obvious.
So this is what WRnative is so upset about? This poor fellow claims to not have bias yet most of the posts I've read of his shows a strong Cleveland bias. Could you please confirm for me if he is biased towards Cleveland so that we can put this to bed?
A simple discussion on Ohio weather had him in a panic to try and prove how Cleveland has less cloudy days than it did in the past.
A simple question on what % of the Cuyahoga residents, especially the ones in the suburbs that are still getting charged the tax actually use the mass transit systems had him going into details on how Cleveland values community welfare more than Cincinnati, and how that somehow equates to Cleveland being of higher quality than Cincinnati.
Quote:
It's easily arguable that Cleveland and Cuyahoga County residents value social goods and community welfare more than those who live in Greater Cincinnati. This says much IMO about the relative quality of the two communities and those persons who populate them.
He's even gone so far as to make exaggerations along the lines that people would rather go to the West Side market for it's culture and history, then to go to Jungle Jim's for it's extensive selection of actual food. Trip adviser has Jungle Jim's rated as a 5/5 while West Side market is rated as a 4/5. Now these ratings are not the end all be all, but it certainly makes someone look rather foolish for speaking so negatively about a place that so many people love. I like the West Side market, but it's no Jungle Jim's. Most people go to markets to shop for food, not for it's culture. His limited understanding of Jungle Jim's is that it is primarily processed foods, when the establishment markets itself for having one of the biggest selections in all of Ohio of fresh fish as well as the most diverse selection of import foods.
Yep, I'm definitely going to have to keep my eye on this one.
I'm much more knowledgeable about Columbus attractions than most Columbus natives that I know. I'm also aware of a life-long Columbus resident who actually travels extensively in Ohio. She didn't believe it when she was told that Cleveland has a significant rail rapid system, and expressed her astonishment when she eventually rode on it from the large West 150th/Puritas free park 'n ride lot, to the Tower City rail transit hub, before transferring to the Waterfront Line to be delivered just outside an entrance to First Energy Field. The availability of that West 150th park 'n ride just off I-71 and RTA day passes is a wonderful tip to Columbus natives visiting Cleveland pro sports venues (a pedestrian walkway takes Tower City transit passengers directly to Quicken Loans Arena and Progressive Field), Playhouse Square, University Circle attractions or even Little Italy or Shaker Square restaurants. How many Columbus natives know anything about Cleveland's RTA rapids???
I couldn't let this statement pass without explaining how absurd it is. Come on, you cannot honestly have written this with a straight face. You are having an aneurism over "Columbus residents AGGRANDIZING (which must be your word of the month) the city while taking digs at Cleveland" and then write this.... Dude... This statement is the definition of aggrandizing. Hahaha.
I actually know quite a bit about urban transit systems and can tell you with absolute fact I have never been 'astonished' with Cleveland's rapid. It's extensive, yes, however it's also a shell of a system. The waterfront line is effectively a ghost aside from game days, the system runs single car operations on most of the lines, and ridership is fell (9.5%) last year systemwide to a historic low. For someone who claims to only care about facts, it's pretty ingenuine to post about the marvels of the rapid while not acknowledging that it's far from anything a system like it should be and could be. If you want to boast about a Cleveland transit system it should be the Health Line.
I have no intention to 'aggrandize' Columbus or Cincy over Cleveland, but acting like Cleveland is some vastly superior cultural magnet city with world class transit and amenities and is doing you more harm than good. Columbus and Cincinnati absolutely have their issues, but you know what, they can admit them and by proxy are able to discuss ideas to fix/improve them.
I will repeat one more for those in the back, the 3Cs are for the first time in history on a pretty damn equal playing field. What happens next? Not sure, but peacocking on a forum about how much more you know about Columbus (or whatever forum you target that day) than someone who has lived there isn't going to push Cleveland ahead in anyones mind.
I actually know quite a bit about urban transit systems and can tell you with absolute fact I have never been 'astonished' with Cleveland's rapid. It's extensive, yes, however it's also a shell of a system. The waterfront line is effectively a ghost aside from game days, the system runs single car operations on most of the lines, and ridership is fell (9.5%) last year systemwide to a historic low. For someone who claims to only care about facts, it's pretty ingenuine to post about the marvels of the rapid while not acknowledging that it's far from anything a system like it should be and could be. If you want to boast about a Cleveland transit system it should be the Health Line.
Why are Cleveland's RTA and other Ohio mass transit systems struggling? The Republicans and Kasich administration has slashed funding for mass transit to levels much lower than other comparable states, which often fund 20 percent of mass transit operating expenses. Additionally, changes in the Ohio sales tax system has greatly reduced revenues. Low gasoline prices in the last few years has increased the use of personal vehicles reducing mass transit ridership.
In Cleveland, RTA has been forced to both reduce service and raise rates, further negatively impacting ridership. Mass transit systems in Ohio are in a vicious cycle, especially RTA with its larger fixed infrastructure and service levels. RTA ridership remains well over twice that of COTA in Columbus. If RTA is a "shell of a system," what is COTA? Is "paltry" for the 14th largest U.S. city a fair adjective to describe COTA?
RTA matches the number of cars in its trains with ridership. Two-car trains are used when demand justifies it.
Here's the point, however. Cleveland does have rail rapids and bus rapids. Passengers can go from Cleveland Hopkins to Tower City on the Red Line without ever stepping outside. The Red Line continues to University Circle and Case Western Reserve University. How much would Columbus residents enjoy a rail rapid with frequent service from the airport to downtown Columbus, then on to Ohio State???
Cleveland offers many, large free park 'n ride lots for both rail and bus service.
The highly acclaimed Healthline bus rapid operates 24/7 with a good frequency of service, especially during commuting hours, and with ridership. It connects downtown Cleveland and University Circle.
Cleveland has free downtown bus trolleys that operate until 11 p.m. at night and on weekends.
If you actually knew quite a bit about urban transit, you wouldn't be belittling Cleveland's RTA, given the comparably low density of its service area compared to more robust systems in more major cities, and especially compared to the less significant mass transit systems in Columbus and Cincinnati.
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Originally Posted by tlb919
I have no intention to 'aggrandize' Columbus or Cincy over Cleveland, but acting like Cleveland is some vastly superior cultural magnet city with world class transit and amenities and is doing you more harm than good. Columbus and Cincinnati absolutely have their issues, but you know what, they can admit them and by proxy are able to discuss ideas to fix/improve them.
I will repeat one more for those in the back, the 3Cs are for the first time in history on a pretty damn equal playing field.
Your comments belie your stated, but obviously disingenuous intention. You may not be aggrandizing Columbus "over" Cleveland or other cities, but implying that Columbus is the equal of Cleveland and Cincinnati in many important urban amenities is a patent absurdity.
I've never said that Cleveland has a world-class transit system. That's just a pathetic straw man argument. What I did say, and it's indisputable, is that Greater Cleveland transit systems are far superior to those in the Columbus and Cincinnati MSAs.
It's easy to document that the Cleveland Museum of Art, the Cleveland Orchestra, and even the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame are world-class cultural institutions that do attract visitors from around the world (read tripadvisor.com reviews, or readily available media reviews, or look at the quality of major exhibitions at the Cleveland Museum of Art or the annual tour schedules of the Cleveland Orchestra). Columbus and Cincinnati have no comparable cultural institutions, but the cultural institutions in Cincinnati are very, very good.
PlayhouseSquare is one of the nation's top theater districts. Cincinnati is no slacker in theater, opera, symphonies, etc. In fact, Cincinnati is superior to Cleveland in opera offerings.
Most persons who visit both the Cleveland Museum of Art and the Columbus Museum of Art have no problem distinguishing between a world-class museum and a very good regional art museum.
It's also true that Cleveland's sports venues, when the talent justifies it, are both national and world class attractions (think LeBron James). E.g., Cleveland will host the MLB all-star game in 2019, and perhaps another World Series run this year.
What's your purpose in posting ridiculous inaccuracies and continuing the ridiculous argument that the three Cs are at the same level in all important urban amenities? Such myopia does not benefit Columbus in the long run; e.g., why should Columbus improve its mass transit system if it's already the equal of Cleveland.
Given Cleveland's massive investment in its cultural institutions in the 21st century, likely between $450 - $500 million, the gap between Cleveland and Columbus in cultural institutions likely has increased.
I think you're mixing up reasons why Cleveland is a good place to visit with reasons why people would want to live in Cleveland. Sure, they have all of those things that people may visit once or twice, but it's not like having those things makes up for a poor business climate compared to the rest of the state, which does affect more people every day. Yes, there are a number of good jobs in Cleveland, but Cleveland's shortsightedness in just stealing jobs from Akron and stifling people from making new jobs is keeping it from growing as much as it could.
I think you're mixing up reasons why Cleveland is a good place to visit with reasons why people would want to live in Cleveland. Sure, they have all of those things that people may visit once or twice, but it's not like having those things makes up for a poor business climate compared to the rest of the state, which does affect more people every day. Yes, there are a number of good jobs in Cleveland, but Cleveland's shortsightedness in just stealing jobs from Akron and stifling people from making new jobs is keeping it from growing as much as it could.
Many Greater Clevelanders visit its parks, museums, pro sports venues, etc., weekly, or more frequently, on average. I know that I do. A 34-story residential building is under construction in Playhouse Square, and the 20-story One University Circle just opened a short walk from the Cleveland Museum of Art.
As for Greater Cleveland's economy, what are you talking about??? Despite a smaller population, it has a larger and faster growing GDP than Columbus or Cincinnati.
I found this article but it's a bit dated from 2012. Has there been any recent surveys given to Ohioans on their opinions of the big Ohio cities similar to this one? I'm willing to bet that Dayton and Akron and Youngstown don't beat out Cleveland in a more recent survey.
Public Policy Polling asked Ohioans to give their opinion about the state's biggest cities and Cleveland did not top the list. Hell, it wasn't even in the top three.
Youngstown, in case you were wondering, occupied the low end of the favorability spectrum, which sounds about right to anyone that isn't from Youngstown, and probably even a few that are.
Columbus came in on top, probably because everyone loves sprawl and strip malls and OSU frat parties and Timmy Horton's. Or something. (CBus scored a 57-15 favorable/unfavorable split.)
I get the vibe that you believe you're talking to a bunch of clueless people on here. You keep linking article after article (which unless it's scholarly, I'm not clicking) and telling us we're all wrong, yet you've failed to actually prove how any of this is quantifiable. It's like you're shocked that we aren't getting it, but trust me, we get that you believe Cleveland is superior. The reality is that the cultural amenities, architecture, transit, and sports are great assets but they aren't fixing the city. The city isn't growing, unemployment is higher, poverty is significantly higher, median household income is significantly lower, and in an increasing knowledge economy Cleveland is still fighting brain drain, GDP is up being that its well tied into legacy assets, but not in any way unreachable for cities like Columbus or Cincinnati.
Here is the best way I can explain this... If I am prospecting cities, I am looking at the entire picture. While Cleveland may have 'superior' cultural amenities like Playhouse Square or CMA, cities like Columbus or Cincinnati or Indy also have cultural amenities. So while the cultural amenity equivalent may not be on the same level, they still exist. Columbus has a top rated Science Museum, Indianapolis has a top rated Children's Museum, and Cincinnati a top rated Contemporary Arts Center. So, as long as amenities exist, many are often going to pick the market that is more tangibly prosperous for many that isn't Cleveland.
You have every right to be proud of Cleveland's assets but you also need to be realistic about it's overall offerings and how it stacks up to it's peers. Even with all of Clevelands accolades, people are choosing Columbus, Cincinnati, Indy, Charlotte, Nashville, Denver, and Austin for a reason.
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You may not be aggrandizing Columbus "over" Cleveland or other cities, but implying that Columbus is the equal of Cleveland and Cincinnati in many important urban amenities is a patent absurdity.
