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the underlining reason is they flat out can't afford a car.
This is the mentality that shows what a big difference there is between young and old. This just isn't true. I have no desire to own a car. If you gave me $20,000, a car is probably 5th on the list of what I'd do with that money.
Actually, houses in a lot of suburbs are cheaper than houses in trendy urban neighborhoods like Ohio City, Tremont, Gordon Square, Collinwood that a lot of younger people are moving to. It's not just about what we're able to afford, as many of these people are quite well off young professionals who do own cars. Our values are just different than those of previous generations. We didn't grow up in an era where "cruising" around in your car, or working on an old beater was cool. We grew up at a time when cars were too expensive for a lot of teenagers, and we were constantly being forced to be driven around by our parents, and we were constantly being told how we have polluted the environment. A lot of us resent that dependence on the automobile. It is a lot more freeing when you don't have to rely on a car to get places. Also there is the added benefit of not having to look for or pay for parking, which is important in the urban environments that many young people are choosing to live.
It's understandable that many folks prefer more open space and larger homes that can only be found in suburban areas. The city vs. suburbs discussion becomes relevant when we're talking about these arbitrary lines drawn on maps a century ago that allow for resources to be concentrated in certain areas at the expense of others. There is no suburb in this region that could survive on its own if it were plopped down in the middle of Montana by itself with just its residents and businesses. The divisiveness is not primarily one of preferences, but one of barriers and walls that have been erected that allow suburbs to leech off of residents in other cities and suburbs in the region.
Location: Cleveland, OH USA / formerly Chicago for 20 years
4,069 posts, read 7,342,377 times
Reputation: 3062
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleverfield
The same can be said of Chicago, or New York. Chicago has basically the same layout as Cleveland, only larger. Outside of Downtown, how many interesting neighborhoods are there in Chicago? Once you get away from the CBD, it gets pretty boring pretty quickly. And Manhattan is a relatively small portion of NYC, Queens and the Bronx are largely pretty "boring".
The difference is, of course, that even only 20 percent of Chicago covers as big a territory, both area- and population-wise, as the entire city of Cleveland. Or even the entire city of Boston, or San Francisco.
BTW, your knowledge of Chicago is limited. I live a full five miles from Chicago's CBD, and I'm in an exciting area with lots to do for which Cleveland has no real counterpart.
So it's great to see that andrew61 has once again hijacked this thread and made it into a one-man Chicago circle-jerk. (Sorry, but he's a troll, and it's worth calling him out on it every time his shows up doing this same old song and dance.)
Cleveland is not New York, Washington, D.C., Boston, San Francisco, or Chicago and it has never had the prominence of these cities. It's disingenuous to compare any development or growth occurring in Cleveland to these cities.
Actually, houses in a lot of suburbs are cheaper than houses in trendy urban neighborhoods like Ohio City, Tremont, Gordon Square, Collinwood that a lot of younger people are moving to. It's not just about what we're able to afford, as many of these people are quite well off young professionals who do own cars. Our values are just different than those of previous generations. We didn't grow up in an era where "cruising" around in your car, or working on an old beater was cool. We grew up at a time when cars were too expensive for a lot of teenagers, and we were constantly being forced to be driven around by our parents, and we were constantly being told how we have polluted the environment. A lot of us resent that dependence on the automobile. It is a lot more freeing when you don't have to rely on a car to get places. Also there is the added benefit of not having to look for or pay for parking, which is important in the urban environments that many young people are choosing to live.
Which era are you talking about? Ever since I've owned a car I have always been intrigued by the mechanical components. For me, it wasn't about "cruising" around, but learning to modify the car so that I could take it up to Norwalk or Thompson raceway.
Anyone that has no interest in owning a car seriously needs to visit a forum like ls1tech.com or svtperformance.com and educate themselves, if anything, on the hobby itself. A simple post on any of these sites asking about why people choose a hobby will provide them with the answers you seek. There's a broad age range on both sites, so age has nothing to do with it. Everything from kids buying new mustangs and camaros to people restoring cars from the 1970's. I've met so many interesting and awesome people from the car scene over the years. City life contains busses, taxis, less trees and more pollution than any suburb. Owning a car/living in a suburb is no less condoning a negative impact on the environment than the person riding around on cabs/busses in the city.
I actually had a car that had NO cats on it because it was eligible for collectors plates in the state of Ohio. Talk about making some environmentalists blood boil lol. Loved every minute of it. But cruising around in that car and enjoying the feeling of control vs riding around on busses and taxi's listening to my ipod or walking down the city streets in cold Cleveland weather? Huh?
I fear that anyone who prefers the bus/taxi route (if this isn't boring, I don't know what is) has never owned a performance vehicle and simply doesn't fully understand the joy, happiness, and excitement that a performance car can bring. Yes, I realize that having a commuter car is completely different than a performance vehicle, but it's a gateway to gaining interest on the subject. I've heard some great stories about Cleveland in the 70's were the street racing scene was happening. Tranny blown? Pull it up on the curb and change it from under the car. What do 17 and 18 year old teens do these days? They worry about who has the higher kill/death ratio in their Call of Duty video game.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew61
Well, heck, most of the city of Cleveland is autocentric too, with the possible exception of the very small handful of neighborhoods that are discussed here ad nauseam. And add to that the fact that many places a Clevelander might like to go are only located in the suburbs anyway. (Where, for just one example, can one shop at a Whole Foods Market within the city limits? Or even go to a first-run movie outside of Tower City?) The type of urban living experience Cleveland has to offer, while possibly surpassing that of most sunbelt cities, still pales in comparison to cities like NYC, Chicago, SF, Boston, Washington DC, etc. The type of urban environments one can find in those cities is only hinted at in a very few places in Cleveland.
Excellent post. I think the takeaway here is that Cleveland is primarily touted by those that have been born and raised there. Most of the people haven't lived outside of Cleveland for a majority of their life. It's all they know. Of course they are going to try to justify why Cleveland isn't as good in certain aspects as the cities you've mentioned. Let's see, I've worked at a fortune 500 company in Cleveland for 5 years, went to CSU for 4 years, lived in 5 different suburbs of Cleveland ranging in both Lake and Cuyahoga county, supported the city of Cleveland for 28 years, lived out of state MS for 4 years, Columbus a year, and now I'm living in a suburb of Cincy. My work takes me all over the US. I work from home and can live anywhere I want, but I decided that I wanted to be within a reasonable distance of family. Who knows, maybe Toledo may be my next destination. Yet we have members on city-data.com that have lived in Cleveland all there life are going to tell me how it is?
It's like a salesman trying to promote their product without having a thorough understanding of the competition.
Andrew, clearly anyone that has spent significant time in Cleveland but lives elsewhere is a troll that has no understanding of the area...
Last edited by maxmodder; 01-04-2014 at 07:16 PM..
Err...no...you are wrong. Inner Harbor IS more crowded than all of Cleveland neighborhoods. As to tourist traps, what do you call East 4th or Warehouse district...if Cleveland had tourists? A bowling alley and House of Blues....touristy to me.
A "city" feel is about density of people and business. On this count Cleveland fails big time and has a LONG way to go to anyone who HAS lived in a real "city" atmosphere. Try walking around any of these neighborhoods during off hours...dead as dead can be almost every time. Crocker Park has more people milling around at night than East 4th St.
So now why is East 4th "cool" and Crocker Park not? Chains...sure...see you at House of Blues after bowling...we're so cool!
Err...no...you are wrong. Inner Harbor IS more crowded than all of Cleveland neighborhoods. As to tourist traps, what do you call East 4th or Warehouse district...if Cleveland had tourists? A bowling alley and House of Blues....touristy to me.
A "city" feel is about density of people and business. On this count Cleveland fails big time and has a LONG way to go to anyone who HAS lived in a real "city" atmosphere. Try walking around any of these neighborhoods during off hours...dead as dead can be almost every time. Crocker Park has more people milling around at night than East 4th St.
So now why is East 4th "cool" and Crocker Park not? Chains...sure...see you at House of Blues after bowling...we're so cool!
I like East 4th because the restaurants are good, it's pedestrian only, it has the CLE Clothing Co. shop, a place for comedy, it's close to the Indians and Cavs and Playhouse Square, and it's a great place to eat out on the patios during the summer. Really hopping in the summer actually. When people are out, it feels like a nice, lively neighborhood in any other major city.
Crocker Park has none of that. It's a horrible place. You need to go into the city some day, broseph.
The same can be said of Chicago, or New York. Chicago has basically the same layout as Cleveland, only larger. Outside of Downtown, how many interesting neighborhoods are there in Chicago? Once you get away from the CBD, it gets pretty boring pretty quickly. And Manhattan is a relatively small portion of NYC, Queens and the Bronx are largely pretty "boring".
This has to be one of the most hilarious posts yet. Queens and the Bronx are boring? REALLY? Have you ever been to either one? And compared to what, Cleveland?
There is more going on in Astoria (Queens) than all of Cleveland combined on any given evening. People and business = density. Fantastic food and bars galore...and that's just one 'hood in one borough of New York City. Or go to Forest Hills (Queens) and again more than Cleveland. And the Bronx...well how about Arthur Ave for REAL Italian food that is not the utter garbage served on Mayfield Ave in Cleveland!
I really think that some of the usual posters need to get out of Cleveland before claiming how "city" like it is. It is not bad for what it is, but it lacks density and constant buzz of what makes a city exciting.
For the uninformed, do yourself a favor and visit Cleveland and then go to any of the other cities discussed: Chicago, Boston, Baltimore, etc. You will NOT choose Cleveland if you don't have to because cheap housing and more "city" life is available in any of these other cities for a comparable cost to Cleveland.
And lastly, without the jobs it doesn't matter what is opened in Cleveland as no one can fill all the seats. Remember that for every person who moves TO Cleveland that is one less person in Lakewood, Shaker, etc. The population of the region is declining so it is a ZERO SUM game. Start posting about all the new good jobs coming to the city if not the area. Maybe then the population will stop falling year after year after year.
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