Cleveland's Loss of National Relevance (Columbus, Cincinnati: rent, to buy, new construction)

[andrew61]

Originally Posted by Clevelander17

So it's great to see that andrew61 has once again hijacked this thread and made it into a one-man Chicago circle-jerk. (Sorry, but he's a troll, and it's worth calling him out on it every time his shows up doing this same old song and dance.)

Cleveland is not New York, Washington, D.C., Boston, San Francisco, or Chicago and it has never had the prominence of these cities. It's disingenuous to compare any development or growth occurring in Cleveland to these cities.

Please read threads more closely. I was not the one who brought up Chicago. This person did:

Originally Posted by Cleverfield

The same can be said of Chicago, or New York. Chicago has basically the same layout as Cleveland, only larger. Outside of Downtown, how many interesting neighborhoods are there in Chicago? Once you get away from the CBD, it gets pretty boring pretty quickly. And Manhattan is a relatively small portion of NYC, Queens and the Bronx are largely pretty "boring".

Enough said.

[maxmodder]

Originally Posted by tribecavsbrowns

Those were both cool when I was a teenager in Lakewood in the mid 90s to early 00s. Were you inside playing SimCity the whole time or something?

I would hope not. In 1999 I beat that game on SNES in a week, (9 years after it's release) then I hopped in my 2000 Mustang GT and enjoyed the fresh suburban air. Good times. Good times.

I'm getting some serious positive rep from this thread BTW. Thanks everyone!

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by Urban Peasant

1) Not every public school or student in Cleveland can be that terrible. I was an educator in the Boston Public Schools for four years in the past and taught at some of the worst schools in the most depressed neighborhoods and even in those schools there were some dedicated students who want to better themselves. I even got more respect from the students in the rough schools than I did from some of the students in the good schools. I'm sure it's the same in Cleveland as it is practically everywhere else.

2) A lot of the people living in suburbs in general right now take away from rather than contribute to the City. It's because so many rich and middle class folk prefer to live in suburbs nowadays that the City and region has to pay for negative externalities such as a decreased tax base increased traffic congestion and the stress and pollution that comes with it. The thought of suburbs being able to ignore the City and still maintain a healthy region is not true. The spread of income inequality will eventually hurt everyone because crime will increase and with that urban sprawl will increase too.

3) Development in the suburbs is good but not as development in the City. I never visited Crocker Park because I only had time to stay in the City and the eastern suburbs during my visit but after reading about it, it sounds like the typical New Urbanist experiment that tries to reenact a city downtown or town square in a secluded piece of land. We have several of these in Greater Boston, one of which is called Legacy Place (not to be confused with the one in Beachwood, OH) and might I add how disappointed I am in that no adequate public transportation reaches it so inner city folk without a car cannot shop or work there. It's as if it was built by the suburbs for the suburbs. How much value does this contribute to the entire region?

4) Trader Joe's is not necessary. Constantino's Market will do just as well. Even better that it's a local chain. I've now been to both and can't really tell the difference.

Amen!

[Clevelander17]

This discussion has gotten beyond silly. Some people prefer urban areas, some people prefer suburban areas, and there are positives and negatives to both.

[maxmodder]

Originally Posted by Clevelander17

This discussion has gotten beyond silly. Some people prefer urban areas, some people prefer suburban areas, and there are positives and negatives to both.

The original talking point was Cleveland's national relevance. Unfortunately, any insightful post gets downplayed whenever Cleveland is compared to another area, more often than not by posters who have never been anywhere else for a significant amount of time. Since everyone can choose where they want to live, comparison of ANY two cities to each other is fair game regardless of their past history or size.

[Tarheel8406]

Originally Posted by NotAPinhead

I'd like to think I am positively contributing to the forum when I warn people about making life decisions about moving to Cleveland and its environs. But for this you are called a troll? Sure the cheap living and many excellent amenities are a lure for many people, but at what real cost? What are they giving up by moving to this area and leaving a more vibrant/expensive area or not choosing a growing area?

I couldn't have said it better myself. A lot of people turn to City Data for answers because they're considering moving to a city and they might not have the resources to check out the city for themselves. To claim that a city is doing great when it's still struggling is to provide misinformation (or propaganda, but that's another loaded term that's probably going to draw some ad hominem attacks my way). This isn't particular to Cleveland either, as I often see it in the Dayton forum as well.

I actually hope that Cleveland succeeds in the future. But as someone who was raised in the area and then moved away, the OP has a unique perspective. What's going on with the city? Why is it losing national relevance? It seems like Cleveland has neighborhoods that are revitalizing, but on the whole, the city is still continuing its decades-long loss of people. I understand that population is not the only measure of how well a city is doing, but I'd say it's a pretty key factor.

And guys, the whole the city vs suburb debate is silly, although it was pretty entertaining to read everyone's responses. As another poster already pointed out, some people prefer living in the city while other people prefer living in the suburbs. You can't hold an objective conversation about it because guess what? Some people actually prefer to live in an auto-centric environment, where they can drive to a store, buy stuff, and then drive home to their cul-de-sac. Others want to be able to walk to a restaurant, walk to a bar, and then walk home. To each their own.

[Clevelander17]

Why are people assuming that those of us that are speaking to the positives of Greater Cleveland have never lived anywhere else? Many of us have lived elsewhere and CHOSE to return to this area because we felt the positives outweighed the negatives. No metropolitan area is perfect, each has its positives and negatives. It's a disservice on City-Data to discuss just the positives, but also to only harp on only the negatives, like some of you have chosen to do.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by Clevelander17

Why are people assuming that those of us that are speaking to the positives of Greater Cleveland have never lived anywhere else? Many of us have lived elsewhere and CHOSE to return to this area because we felt the positives outweighed the negatives. No metropolitan area is perfect, each has its positives and negatives. It's a disservice on City-Data to discuss just the positives, but also to only harp on only the negatives, like some of you have chosen to do.

If you believe the negative people here, you'd think the city were about to self-destruct, almost literally.

If you believe the positive people here, you'd think that downtown, Ohio City, University Circle and 4-5 other neighborhoods are decently fun places now that have a lot going for them.

I appeal to the people, which one do you think it more accurate?

I haven't read anyone here ever say that "Oh yeah you guys should move to Hough. It's really turned around there." In this situation, I would say that's dishonest. Nobody has said "Cleveland has just landed 5 additional Fortune 500 companies and population has grown by 3% in the last year." That is also just a lie. Amazingly, nobody has said anything like that. Nobody has said "Cleveland public schools are a model for the nation."

I don't understand what's wrong with saying that there are more than a few good places in Cleveland. Pinhead and the like are trying to point out an equivalence here that doesn't exist, meanwhile assuming they know everything about anyone who says anything positive. There are many things I am critical of in Cleveland, given my experience living in Boston, Columbus, and abroad.

[Tarheel8406]

I never implied that Cleveland is a horrible place and that nobody should move there. But those who are considering moving there should understand what it's like to live there. Cleveland is not, say, Washington DC or Boston, both of which most would say are more lively than Cleveland. And I'm aware that nobody has explicitly made that claim (that Cleveland = DC/Boston/successfully revitalized city), but with the way some people responded to the OP, it seemed like they were trying to make Cleveland more than what it actually is.

[Muffy1]

I live in the east side suburbs of Cleveland and I think I understand what Cali1976 is referring to. I am not sure what part of California you are from but it would probably not be a fair comparison to Cleveland. The east side suburbs of Cleveland are slowly dying. I feel the far westside, such as Strongsville, Westlake and other west side suburbs are doing much better. Cleveland and suburbs do not have the same type of energy or as vibrant as other cities but Cleveland is still redefining itself. It is difficult for a city with very strong manufacturing roots to remake itself for the new economy. I have been to other airports and hopkins is dead in comparison. I hope cleveland makes a come back one day but we need strong leadership and voters that want a sound long term strategy. Cities that are successful sell their cities to companies so they can relocate. Cleveland still thinks its the 1960s. As a matter of fact, i have been to places in cleveland and people will tell "this was a great (blank) in the 60s. Personally i dont care what cleveland was like back in the day!! Many people in cleveland live in the past while othet cities do whatever they can to entice businesses and people to move to their city!!!