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Well, I've live in Columbus (Dublin) and Charlotte and all I can say is I have always moved where I desired without our jobs factoring in the decision. I spent decades in central OH and actually preferred Cleveland (over COL) the most for many reasons. Even though family is up north my wife and I decided we wanted to move to the Sunbelt and we chose Charlotte. That was 9 years ago and couldn't have made a better decision for me and my family. What an awesome city with a great future, obviously many others feel the same as many continue to locate here.
With big population growth you like to see job growth, new companies continue to locate here and the city continues to diversify in energy, healthcare, manufacturing...and they are hiring Forbes: Charlotte ranked 4th in nation for hiring this fall - Charlotte Business Journal
note most of the cities hiring are in sunbelt..
Being a Buckeye fan I never thought I would say this but I must admit SEC football is where it is at...
You've said all this before, and you are clearly in the small minority in which economics doesn't matter. Good for you, but it's not exactly representative of the general population.
As for the rest, we both know where that's really coming from and it has nothing to do with Columbus.
You've said all this before, and you are clearly in the small minority in which economics doesn't matter. Good for you, but it's not exactly representative of the general population.
As for the rest, we both know where that's really coming from and it has nothing to do with Columbus.
A real Buckeye fan would never stoop that low.
You're dragging on an argument that you can't win.
GREAT news and thanks for sharing John. I noticed that High Street was mentioned, so (correct me if I'm wrong) this is actual downtown development just south of the Short North???!!! I also noticed a new urban park. What's the name of that park and how large is it? It reminds me of the new Romare Bearden Park in Charlotte's downtown. I'm a little shocked that downtown Columbus has only 6,300 residents though. I expected that number to be in the 12,000-16,000 range to be honest. Do you have any idea of what the actual downtown boundaries are? In Charlotte, "downtown" (locally called 'uptown') is the 1.8 sq/mile area that is bordered by I-277 to the north, east, and south. The western edge of "downtown" is just short of I-77. As of this year, downtown Charlotte has close to 15,000 people.
A downtown Columbus grocer was mentioned in your link. A place to buy groceries is a must for any successful downtown, so Columbus is okay there. In Charlotte's case, downtown has a Harris Teeter (which is pretty much Krogers) and the 7th Street Public Market. Just outside of downtown in "Midtown", there is a Trader Joes and a Target (the Target has groceries similar to that of a typical Super Walmart).
I've long envied Columbus's downtown minor league ball park, but starting next year Charlotte will finally bring their team home to a downtown stadium. The stadium is still under construction, but I think it will be a nice spot to check out a game.
After reading your link, it seems that a lack of downtown retail is something Charlotte and Columbus have in common. Some of the so called "experts" on this topic swear that Charlotte's downtown population has finally reached the point of being able to sustain retail, but the retail hasn't come yet. The South End area (just south of uptown) is seeing it though. I can only assume that cheaper (than downtown) leasing is the primary reason.
For Charlotte, the biggest story when it comes to downtown developments has been the addition of rail. Thanks to the current rail line (and the expansion on the way), residents are visiting downtown more often and in larger numbers. Quite a few are choosing to spend more money just to live downtown. Near Romare Bearden Park, you can clearly see the 29 story Catalyst apartment building. The tower crane just to the right of Catalyst (directly in front of the stadium) is constructing a 22 story apartment building. At the current rate of development, downtown Charlotte could easily have a population of 20,000 by 2020. That's not bad at all for a 1.8 sq/mile area that some people used to call a "glorified office park".
Why would you want a city to continue to grow as fast as these cities? It's clearly not going to and I never implied it would.
So what exactly have you been arguing here?
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You however implied that Charlotte, and the rest of North Carolina
were not going to continue to grow because 1.) the unemployment numbers 2.) the
government. Therefore, I replied with multiple links to factually, rather than
opinion-ally prove that Charlotte, and North Carolina have/are continuing
to grow despite of unemployment numbers and the government hasn't had any
drastic force on whether or not people move here.
So wait, you agree that the high rates of growth will come to an end, you just disagree with one of the reasons suggested for that happening?
And it may very well be having an effect. NC is in the midst of its biggest drop in its labor force in 40 years, exceeding those that occurred during any recession since the mid-1970s, including during the 2007-2010 period. Charlotte has been flat-lined or down since about October of last year. Usually, when the labor force drops or stops growing, unemployment rates go down just because there are less people in the job market, but they have been steady at best. For all your economic chest-thumping, the state and metro are simply NOT creating enough jobs to even provide employment at the national average rate. You can add more jobs than any other state combined, but if it doesn't at least keep up with growth, that's still a lot more people unemployed and sucking resources. That you still may have high rates of growth likely means there's just a lag between reality and public perception.
Quote:
Truth be told, Charlotte is currently growing at a higher percentage than
Columbus and Cincinnati combined; as to where majority of the other OH
metropolitan areas are loosing population and NC's are not.
And? Columbus has never had boom growth and likely never will. I consider that a positive, and based on your first sentence, so do you. Steady growth is preferred, imo, as it allows for easy absorption of population, increases in tax revenue, keeping cost of living lower and creating less cost-inefficient sprawl.
Quote:
So if NC's government was in the state you're presuming it out to be, and Ohio's
isn't- NC's unemployment rate is almost 2.0% higher than Ohio's, why is North
Carolina the 13th fastest growing state in the country and Ohio the 46th?
Three reasons I can think of: 1. Retirees prefer warmer climates, seemingly, and the US population has been aging for some time. While only a small factor in relocation, Ohio's average population age, especially outside of Columbus, skews much older. 2. Ohio hasn't had a good reputation in a long time, fair or not. The perception of most of it consisting of depressed, former manufacturing towns rusting under a gloomy sky is still probably the image many people have of the state. NC has never had to deal with such a negative image of itself... at least not until recently. 3. Most importantly, Ohio has not had a particularly strong economy in the last several decades, particularly from about 1970-1990s. It's no longer particularly bad, either, and has diversified greatly from what it used to be, but image is still a pretty powerful deterrent.
Quote:
What do you think is going to happen once growth levels back to the national
average? The only one being arrogant here is yourself; apparently you think by
being arrogant you're making Ohio look better, when you're really not.
That's a question you should really be asking about your state. It has pretty much lived off of that growth for a long time now. What happens when it's no longer there in the levels it's become accustomed to? What would happen to Charlotte with 5%-10% growth instead of 30%-40%? I can at least imagine a growing issue with infrastructure and taxes.
I'm not the spokesperson for all of Ohio. I don't work for the tourism bureau. It is not my job to make Ohio look better or worse about anything. Frankly, if you use a single person or a single discussion to make any conclusion about an entire state, then it just shows a lack of intellectual honesty on your part. My opinions given here should not influence that either way.
Quote:
So wouldn't you say that unemployment numbers and the state of NC's government
aren't making NC less attractive? Whether or not you want to admit it is your
decision, but facts would.
No, I wouldn't say that. You are making a classic mistake and trying to use past growth as an indication of future results. Even you have admitted that the end is going to come sometime. I guess we just disagree on when that will be and what may be the causes.
Location: livin' the good life on America's favorite island
2,221 posts, read 4,390,912 times
Reputation: 1391
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81
You've said all this before, and you are clearly in the small minority in which economics doesn't matter. Good for you, but it's not exactly representative of the general population.
As for the rest, we both know where that's really coming from and it has nothing to do with Columbus.
A real Buckeye fan would never stoop that low.
Are you the city-forum police? I didn't realize there were limits on what one can comment on. Not sure what you mean by 'the rest..'
Are there rules on how a fan must act? Geez, maybe living in SEC country has something to do with my interest and the intrigue of many SEC games turning into a slug fest. Possibly another reason is I am investing $30k/yr for my daughter to attend Ole Miss, actually I'm looking forward to attending the Texas A&M/Ole Miss game in a couple weeks, should be a good one. I can root for multiple teams...just like I am a Browns fan, a season ticket holder for almost 30 years and counting, I am also a Panther fan (second). I guess I am a real football fan.
I will say there is a peculiar trend about my friend from MX and wannabe Columbusite...Just about anytime there is a positive post or story regarding the Sunbelt, NC, or Charlotte you are always right there posting trying to tear down or discount what others say. What gives? Jealousy is not an attractive trait.
So wait, you agree that the high rates of growth will come to an end, you just disagree with one of the reasons suggested for that happening?
And it may very well be having an effect. NC is in the midst of its biggest drop in its labor force in 40 years, exceeding those that occurred during any recession since the mid-1970s, including during the 2007-2010 period. Charlotte has been flat-lined or down since about October of last year. Usually, when the labor force drops or stops growing, unemployment rates go down just because there are less people in the job market, but they have been steady at best. For all your economic chest-thumping, the state and metro are simply NOT creating enough jobs to even provide employment at the national average rate. You can add more jobs than any other state combined, but if it doesn't at least keep up with growth, that's still a lot more people unemployed and sucking resources. That you still may have high rates of growth likely means there's just a lag between reality and public perception.
I agree that Charlotte will not grow at 3.59% forever, like you implied.
The number of jobs being added isn't all that important. What's important is that Charlotte is adding jobs.
Notice a difference? Something increased Charlotte's Gross Product by $9 billion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81
And? Columbus has never had boom growth and likely never will. I consider that a positive, and based on your first sentence, so do you. Steady growth is preferred, imo, as it allows for easy absorption of population, increases in tax revenue, keeping cost of living lower and creating less cost-inefficient sprawl.
Then you're basically attacking Charlotte because it's growing faster than Columbus, with a higher unemployment number.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81
Three reasons I can think of: 1. Retirees prefer warmer climates, seemingly, and the US population has been aging for some time. While only a small factor in relocation, Ohio's average population age, especially outside of Columbus, skews much older. 2. Ohio hasn't had a good reputation in a long time, fair or not. The perception of most of it consisting of depressed, former manufacturing towns rusting under a gloomy sky is still probably the image many people have of the state. NC has never had to deal with such a negative image of itself... at least not until recently. 3. Most importantly, Ohio has not had a particularly strong economy in the last several decades, particularly from about 1970-1990s. It's no longer particularly bad, either, and has diversified greatly from what it used to be, but image is still a pretty powerful deterrent.
How is any of this relevant to the government of both states?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81
That's a question you should really be asking about your state. It has pretty much lived off of that growth for a long time now. What happens when it's no longer there in the levels it's become accustomed to? What would happen to Charlotte with 5%-10% growth instead of 30%-40%? I can at least imagine a growing issue with infrastructure and taxes.
With that growth, the state has welcomed new businesses with jobs as to where Ohio has not. This thread is about Columbus and Charlotte and the only way you seem to feel like you're winning is when you complain about North Carolina's growth because Ohio hasn't seen any. It's like you're jealous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81
I'm not the spokesperson for all of Ohio. I don't work for the tourism bureau. It is not my job to make Ohio look better or worse about anything. Frankly, if you use a single person or a single discussion to make any conclusion about an entire state, then it just shows a lack of intellectual honesty on your part. My opinions given here should not influence that either way.
So then why are you making your conclusion about Charlotte and North Carolina over unemployment numbers and the government when facts aren't in your favor?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81
No, I wouldn't say that. You are making a classic mistake and trying to use past growth as an indication of future results. Even you have admitted that the end is going to come sometime. I guess we just disagree on when that will be and what may be the causes.
Until you can go into the future and tell me the growth rates, the past is all you're getting. However the "past" being numbers released weeks ago is the most accurate way to predict the future. And by numbers released weeks ago, you and I should both agree that NC is still growing despite the state of the government and unemployment numbers.
NC is the 4th fastest growing state by addition of jobs. Ohio is 44th. This conversation is over. You lost.
GREAT news and thanks for sharing John. I noticed that High Street was mentioned, so (correct me if I'm wrong) this is actual downtown development just south of the Short North???!!! I also noticed a new urban park. What's the name of that park and how large is it? It reminds me of the new Romare Bearden Park in Charlotte's downtown. I'm a little shocked that downtown Columbus has only 6,300 residents though. I expected that number to be in the 12,000-16,000 range to be honest. Do you have any idea of what the actual downtown boundaries are? In Charlotte, "downtown" (locally called 'uptown') is the 1.8 sq/mile area that is bordered by I-277 to the north, east, and south. The western edge of "downtown" is just short of I-77. As of this year, downtown Charlotte has close to 15,000 people.
A downtown Columbus grocer was mentioned in your link. A place to buy groceries is a must for any successful downtown, so Columbus is okay there. In Charlotte's case, downtown has a Harris Teeter (which is pretty much Krogers) and the 7th Street Public Market. Just outside of downtown in "Midtown", there is a Trader Joes and a Target (the Target has groceries similar to that of a typical Super Walmart).
I've long envied Columbus's downtown minor league ball park, but starting next year Charlotte will finally bring their team home to a downtown stadium. The stadium is still under construction, but I think it will be a nice spot to check out a game.
After reading your link, it seems that a lack of downtown retail is something Charlotte and Columbus have in common. Some of the so called "experts" on this topic swear that Charlotte's downtown population has finally reached the point of being able to sustain retail, but the retail hasn't come yet. The South End area (just south of uptown) is seeing it though. I can only assume that cheaper (than downtown) leasing is the primary reason.
For Charlotte, the biggest story when it comes to downtown developments has been the addition of rail. Thanks to the current rail line (and the expansion on the way), residents are visiting downtown more often and in larger numbers. Quite a few are choosing to spend more money just to live downtown. Near Romare Bearden Park, you can clearly see the 29 story Catalyst apartment building. The tower crane just to the right of Catalyst (directly in front of the stadium) is constructing a 22 story apartment building. At the current rate of development, downtown Charlotte could easily have a population of 20,000 by 2020. That's not bad at all for a 1.8 sq/mile area that some people used to call a "glorified office park".
There are 3 new parks near or in Downtown Columbus... Columbus Commons, Scioto Mile and Scioto-Audubon. About 35 more acres will be created with a river restoration project starting this fall.
The Dispatch article is misleading. I have no idea where they get their 30,000 historical population figure from because it's not true. Going back through the 1930s, the peak CBD/Downtown population in Columbus was about 12,092 in 1950. It bottomed out in 1980 at 1,588. So the 6,300 estimate is more than half of the historic peak. Through 2014, given the current/planned construction, that number will surpass 8,000. By 2020, it will likely be at or past its historic peak. So while the number seems low (and it is), in context it's not doing terribly bad, especially with absolutely no rail or high-rise residential projects.
Incidentally, the population near Downtown Columbus (Mile 1 below) is fairly similar to what it is in Charlotte. If you use the distance from City Hall figures that the census does, Columbus' weak spot is really only the immediate CBD in comparison, however.
Mile 0 Population
Charlotte: 15,313
Columbus: 7,416
Mile 1 Population Aggregate
Columbus: 49,667
Charlotte: 46,704
Mile 2 Population Aggregate
Columbus: 134,826
Charlotte: 101,651
Mile 3 Population Aggregate
Columbus: 221,466
Charlotte: 141,780
Mile 4 Population Aggregate
Columbus: 314,557
Charlotte: 221,359
Mile 5 Population Aggregate
Columbus: 404,642
Charlotte: 284,480
Mile 10 Population Aggregate
Columbus: 993,957
Charlotte: 732,838
Hopefully, the downtown population can continue to increase at the current rate.
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