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Yup. there is no other city that has orchestra homers here. zero. when you see this you know it's going to be a Cleveland homer thread, and the homer will never stop. its so tiresome and so boring, that mods actually banned Cleveland threads in City vs. City for a long time. that poster is doing their city no favors.
It is only that way because people like you have to jump in and start your usual Cleveland bash-fest. This was a thread about Pittsburgh and, honestly, I was content to sit on the sideline and take in other's POV until you jump in with the usual, paranoid Cleveland put-downs ... and the OP (he/she claims they didn't want this to turn into a Cleveland vs. Pittsburgh contest -- yeah, right). I don't put down or bash any city, esp Pittsburgh, that I often praise as unique, cultural, historic, interesting, transit-friendly, walkable, etc. But this doesn't seem to be enough to quell the perpetual Cleveland bashers -- I really don't get it.
Cleveland, objectively, has the top 1-2 orchestras in the world. Don't take our word for it, go to NYC. Ask the Times critics (both in New York and London), among others. If you think the orchestra's rep is "homerism", ... I don't know what to tell you. Also, if you think Cleveland's stronger, to Pittsburgh's, cultural scene -- including music education (where is Pittsburgh's answer to CIM?), theatre (Playhouse Sq's prominence -- not just in seat and theatre numbers, but in the longstanding quality and quantity of performances excels over all but a few cities, large and small), and btw, PHS has also attracted/created a synergy with both CSU, nearby Kent State and the local public NPR station, where the innovative Idea Stream is now located ... then there's the famed Great Lakes Festival (no, not homerism, Hollywood actually made a well-received movie (comedy/drama) about it 39 years ago: "Those Lips, Those Eyes,") ... not to mention smaller, well-respected local theatre companies like the Dobama and the East Cleveland... And if you think Cleveland just stands on the strength of the Cleveland Museum of Art, great though it is, and superior to Carnegie, why not throw in the newer, well-received MOCA, just a few blocks away?
... oh yeah, and there is that thing call the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame downtown on the Lake; you know, that nationally-recognized, tourist-drawing thing? ... just a short train ride away from Univ Circle's high culture.
And for the OP and rock climbing, try Squaw Rock (in the MetroParks) or Nelson's Ledges, less than an hour away. And the comment about Pittsburgh being hours away from Lake Erie as a comparison??
Location: Pittsburgh (via Chicago, via Pittsburgh)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
It is only that way because people like you have to jump in and start your usual Cleveland bash-fest. This was a thread about Pittsburgh and, honestly, I was content to sit on the sideline and take in other's POV until you jump in ... and the OP (he/she claims they didn't want this to turn into a Cleveland vs. Pittsburgh contest -- yeah, right).
From the get go I state in my OP that Cleveland would be a close peer and that a lot of it comes down to personal preference. You can go back and read it. If that is “bashing” Cleveland I’m not sure what to tell you. Like Buster said, the few repeating Cleveland posters who copy and paste their 1,000 word posts about the orchestra and then make false claims about how people are somehow jealous that their city isn’t on Lake Erie aren’t doing the reasonable Cleveland posters or the city any favors. Would love to hear more about how Cleveland compares to Pittsburgh beyond the orchestra and address some of the other topics that pertain to the thread (restaurant scene, etc.). Better yet, maybe some other city comparisons would be welcome
Location: Pittsburgh (via Chicago, via Pittsburgh)
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I don’t think anyone can keep up with your post edits. I won’t even entertain (another) orchestra diatribe. I won’t entertain your misunderstanding of my posts about Lake Erie (hint: go back and read my posts again).
If you want to compare Squaw Rock and Nelson ledges to Ohiopyle, McConnells Mills, Breakneck Rocks, Coopers Rock, The Knobs, Colls Cove, or Highrocks, that’s fine. This is not even including some top class climbing areas like Seneca Rocks that are a bit further out (2.5 hours). What other outdoor recreation that has been discussed is there? What outdoor recreation happens right in the city limits of Cleveland, because that may be an interesting comparison to Cleveland? Just asking out of curiosity.
Last edited by ForYourLungsOnly; 11-30-2019 at 10:51 AM..
There is roughly a 0% chance of someone on this site was listening to an unknown recording they could tell the difference between the PSO or the CSO or honestly even the Rochester symphony.
Orchestras are one of those things that you have or you don’t.
Now More Theatres mean more shows which is a noticeable difference. An art museum with an entire extra wing means more exhibits and a longer experience.
Yeah I find the orchestra thing weird to argue about when 90% or more of the population couldn't care less which city has a better one....
Apart from Lake Erie, Pymatuming is Pennsylvania's largest lake, covering 17,000 acres, much less than 1 percent of the surface area of Lake Erie. And Cleveland is closer to Pymatuming than Pittsburgh (over 90 minutes away)! And I doubt that there are sailing regattas or tall ship visits on Pymatuming.
Pittsburgh is three hours to the Allegheny Reservoir, with 12,000 acres. Cleveland again is closer!!!
Well, you're being highly overdramatic with your Cleveland is closer claims.... According to Google Cleveland is all of an eight minute faster drive to the Pymatuning Spillway than Pittsburgh is, and Pittsburgh to the Kinzua Dam is about ten minutes faster than the Cleveland to there is.
The issue with the Cleveland comparison, and I very much like Cleveland, is that Cleveland has a lot more neighborhoods that fell hard during the latter half of the 20th century and its downtown became riddled with surface parking lots. Pittsburgh's downtown meanwhile stayed mostly intact while its neighborhoods didn't quite get raked over as much overall. They both have great institutions that have carried over from their times of remarkable prosperity and they are both seeing a lot of reinvestment, but Pittsburgh simply was not as scathed as Cleveland was.
That being said, these are two great cities that are also physically quite close to each other. They could really use a higher-speed rail linkage with frequent runs between the two. Maybe a good Pittsburgh-Youngstown-Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit run.
Location: Pittsburgh (via Chicago, via Pittsburgh)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
The issue with the Cleveland comparison, and I very much like Cleveland, is that Cleveland has a lot more neighborhoods that fell hard during the latter half of the 20th century and its downtown became riddled with surface parking lots. Pittsburgh's downtown meanwhile stayed mostly intact while its neighborhoods didn't quite get raked over as much overall. They both have great institutions that have carried over from their times of remarkable prosperity and they are both seeing a lot of reinvestment, but Pittsburgh simply was not as scathed as Cleveland was.
That being said, these are two great cities that are also physically quite close to each other. They could really use a higher-speed rail linkage with frequent runs between the two. Maybe a good Pittsburgh-Youngstown-Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit run.
Agreed! Connect that bad boy to Chicago too and I’d be in heaven
Well, you're being highly overdramatic with your Cleveland is closer claims.... According to Google Cleveland is all of an eight minute faster drive to the Pymatuning Spillway than Pittsburgh is, and Pittsburgh to the Kinzua Dam is about ten minutes faster than the Cleveland to there is.
My post that you quoted said that Cleveland was closer to the Allegheny Reservoir than Pittsburgh. The subject was "large lakes" nearby Pittsburgh, not dams. Cleveland is 15 minutes closer to the Allegheny Reservoir than Pittsburgh, according to Google. Surely you checked the distances between the Allegheny Reservoir before you decided to attempt to discredit my post by switching the topic to dams. Are dam visits a big recreational activity in Pittsburgh???
Yet proximity to Pymatuning Reservoir or Allegheny Reservoir is meaningless to most Greater Clevelanders, and I suspect to many Greater Pittsburgh residents, as Pittsburgh is less than 2 hours from Presque Isle, arguably the best U.S. beach destination on Lake Erie. Why would anyone drive over 90 minutes, let alone 3 hours (Allegheny Reservoir) when Lake Erie is within two hours???
Lake Erie is one of the major reasons that I would never choose to live in Greater Pittsburgh over Greater Cleveland. Attempting to denigrate Lake Erie as a great recreational resource by comparing it to distant, tiny artificial lakes is a bad joke, one that only would be perpetrated by those who have no idea of the immenses pleasures conferred by living on Lake Erie.
Millions of Greater Clevelanders live within close proximity to Lake Erie. Unless an inland lake (e.g., Punderson Lake in rural Geauga County) is in their backyard, most Clevelanders wouldn't waste their time going to an inland beach. I've camped on inland beaches and they are nothing compared to a Lake Erie surf beach, even though inland beaches offer an opportunity to take a cool swim.
Versus Mentor Headlands Beach State Park just 35 minutes away and much closer for the large majority of Greater Clevelanders than Punderson State Park, which apparently is much closer to most Greater Clevelanders than any decent-sized recreational lake is to most Greater Pittsburgh residents, based on posts so far in this thread.
Like many Clevelanders, I was raised within 15 miles of Lake Erie, and went to the beach several times a week in mid-June through August growing up. As a young adult living on Lake Erie, I regularly jogged to a local park with a pier into Lake Erie. Typically, I would jog to the end of the pier, and take a long break. Sometimes I would chat quietly with a fisherman, but most often I would just check every vista. It was amazing how many different moods Lake Erie displayed. Sometimes it was placid, with gentle waves lapping the shore. Sometimes it was angry with large waves rolling over the beaches and even (when Lake Erie was high as it is now) reaching the cliffs. And in a jog in January, you would see the lake covered in a steamy fog as the lake surface would begin its freezing.
As an older, retired adult, I still visit the shoreline to walk on beaches, or on shoreline trails above Lake Erie. Sometimes on the right day, I'll take a book and just read on a beach in the evening until sunset, enjoying the breeze, and the vistas, marked by lighthouses, kayakers, sailboats, etc.
I've never owned a boat, but I have friends that owned boats. Imagine a very hot summer day, and taking a cabin cruiser several miles offshore, but still within view of the Cleveland night-time skyline. The anchor is dropped, life preservers are donned, and we slip into a 77-80 degree F. lake, enjoying the swells lifting and dropping us, wishing we could do this every night.
I have so many great memories of Lake Erie adventures, even in a few recent years walking out on a frozen Lake Erie over a mile distance from shore.
So I personally find it ridiculous to hear a comparison of Lake Erie to distant, tiny artificial lakes.
All along Lake Erie are marinas and yacht clubs, several within a short distance of downtown Cleveland.
Edgewater Beach is a short distance from downtown and can be reached by public transportation and a short walk. The Edgewater upper park offers great walking/running trails with views of both Lake Erie and the Cleveland skyline. Edgewater Live is a popular summer activity; partying on a beach, especially with the cooling winds, the views and the sand, is hard to beat.
My belief is that a much, much larger percentage of Greater Clevelanders use Lake Erie as a source of recreation than the percentage of Greater Pittsburgh residents who rock climb, downhill ski, mountain bike, boulder climb, or white water raft.
BTW, all of the above activities are readily available to Greater Clevelanders. There are small downhill ski/board/tubing slopes in Greater Cleveland. There is rock climbing. For white water rafting, most Clevelanders that I know just make a weekend trip to the New River, WV, which offers the best rafting east of the Mississippi River. They don't go to Ohiopyle in PA, and certainly not more than once. A leap off Jump Rock on the New River was one of the more memorable "Huck Finn" moments of my life.
Serious Greater Cleveland skiers head to Peek 'n Peak, less than hours distant (same as distance from Pittsburgh to Lake Erie) or to Holiday Valley (3 hours). And many just fly to Colorado. And consider that climate change will greatly impact the downhill ski industry, and most likely WV and PA resorts will be among the first to suffer a severe impact.
Location: Pittsburgh (via Chicago, via Pittsburgh)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
My post that you quoted said that Cleveland was closer to the Allegheny Reservoir than Pittsburgh. The subject was lakes nearby Pittsburgh, not dams. Cleveland is 15 minutes closer to the Allegheny Reservoir than Pittsburgh, according to Google. Surely you checked the distances between the Allegheny Reservoir before you decided to attempt to discredit my post by switching the topic to dams. Are dam visits a big recreational activity in Pittsburgh???
Yet proximity to Pymatuning Reservoir or Allegheny Reservoir is meaningless to most Greater Clevelanders, and I suspect to many Greater Pittsburgh residents, as Pittsburgh is less than 2 hours from Presque Isle, arguably the best U.S. beach destination on Lake Erie. Why would anyone drive over 90 minutes, let alone 3 hours (Allegheny Reservoir) when Lake Erie is within two hours???
Here's the rub. Millions of Greater Clevelanders within close proximity to Lake Erie. Unless an inland lake (e.g., Punderson Lake in rural Geauga County) is in their backyard, most Clevelanders wouldn't waste their time going to an inland beach. I've camped on inland beaches and they are nothing compared to a Lake Erie surf beach, even though inland beaches offer an opportunity to take a cool swim.
Like many Clevelanders, I was raised within 15 miles of Lake Erie, and went to the beach several times a week in mid-June through August growing up. As a young adult living on Lake Erie, I regularly jogged to a local park with a pier into Lake Erie. Typically, I would jog to the end of the pier, and take a long break. Sometimes I would chat quietly with a fisherman, but most often I would just check every vista. It was amazing how many different moods Lake Erie displayed. Sometimes it was placid, with gentle waves lapping the shore. Sometimes it was angry with large waves rolling over the beaches and even (when Lake Erie was high as it is now) reaching the cliffs. And in a jog in January, you would see the lake covered in a steamy fog as the lake surface would begin its freezing.
As an adult, I still visit the shoreline to walk on beaches, or on shoreline trails above Lake Erie. Sometimes on the right day, I'll take a book and just read on a beach until sunset.
I've never owned a boat, but I have friends that owned boats. Imagine a very hot summer day, and taking a cabin cruiser several miles offshore, but still within view of the Cleveland night-time skyline. The anchor is dropped, life preservers are donned, and we slip into a 77-80 degree F. lake, enjoying the swells lifting and dropping us, wishing we could do this every night.
I have so many great memories of Lake Erie adventures, even in a few recent years walking out on a frozen Lake Erie over a mile distance from shore.
So I personally find it ridiculous to hear a comparison of Lake Erie to distant, tiny artificial lakes.
All along Lake Erie are marinas and yacht clubs, several within a short distance of downtown Cleveland.
Edgewater Beach is a short distance from downtown and can be reached by public transportation and a short walk. The Edgewater upper park offers great walking/running trails with views of both Lake Erie and the Cleveland skyline. Edgewater Live is a popular summer activity.
My belief is that a much larger percentage of Greater Clevelanders use Lake Erie as a source of recreation than the percentage of Greater Pittsburgh residents who rock climb, downhill ski, mountain bike, boulder climb, or white water raft. Lake Erie is an integral part of the recreation activities of many, many Greater Clevelanders.
BTW, all of the above activities are readily available to Greater Clevelanders. There are small downhill ski/board/tubing slopes in Greater Cleveland. There is rock climbing. For white water rafting, most Clevelanders that I know just make a weekend trip to the New River, WV, which offers the best rafting east of the Mississippi River. They don't go to Ohiopyle in PA. A leap off Jump Rock on the New River was one of the more memorable "Huck Finn" moments of my life.
Serious Greater Cleveland skiers head to Peek 'n Peak, less than hours distant (same as distance from Pittsburgh to Lake Erie) or to Holiday Valley (3 hours). And many just fly to Colorado.
I won't (nor will will anyone else) click through the hours worth of hyperlinks you post, but I will attempt to succinctly reply, though it may not be of much use anymore given how your previous responses have gone.
Not sure why you are so focused on Pymatuning/Allegheny reservoir- you are the one who mentioned it in the first place. You are the one who hyperfocused on one portion of one sentence I made that had "large lakes" in it, and somehow extrapolated those two words to oblivion to the point where you are talking about how many miles Pittsburgh vs. Cleveland is to Pymatuning lake. ALL I said was that recreational rivers and lakes are one portion of the sheer plethora of outdoor culture/activities in Pittsburgh. People like to go boating on them. Thats all I said about lakes, and you took it to the stratosphere, and you continue to.
Your reply about other outdoor recreation can be summarized:
-You assume Clevelanders partake in some kind of Lake Erie outdoor recreation on a regular basis more than Pittsburghers do all of the recreational activities in the greater Pittsburgh area combined? Uhh, ok. If you want to believe that bizarre assumption, go ahead.
- New River is 5 hours away from Cleveland...Ohiopyle and/or Cheat River is an hour to hour and a half from PGH and offers Class 5 rapids
- Are the ski "hills" you posted part of a ski resort similar to Seven Springs? Doesn't seem like it
- I can tell you don't rock climb if you think the climbing options around Cleveland are comparable to SW PA and north WV, within an hour of Pittsburgh.
- Can you mountain bike on legitimate mountain biking trails within the city limits of Cleveland? You can in Frick Park, Pittsburgh.
-This doesn't even go into the dozens and dozens of urban trails you can bike in PGH along the rivers/parks. You can bike the GAP trail and start from downtown Pittsburgh and make it all the way to DC if you would so choose.
Look- Pittsburgh and SW PA are in one of the most unique geographical urban settings in the country. SW PA and many other parts of PA are some of the most biodynamic and beautiful areas in the Eastern US. Pittsburgh simply has access to these areas at it's doorstep. Most people who actually partake in a variety of outdoor activities don't even find this debatable.
PS- I live on a great lake right now, living in Chicago (which has a far better lakefront than what Cleveland could even dream). Even though Chicago's lakefront is spectacular and the great lake culture is ingrained here, part of the reason I am moving back to Pittsburgh is for its superiority in outdoor recreation.
Last edited by ForYourLungsOnly; 12-01-2019 at 07:29 AM..
It is only that way because people like you have to jump in and start your usual Cleveland bash-fest. This was a thread about Pittsburgh and, honestly, I was content to sit on the sideline and take in other's POV until you jump in with the usual, paranoid Cleveland put-downs ... and the OP (he/she claims they didn't want this to turn into a Cleveland vs. Pittsburgh contest -- yeah, right). I don't put down or bash any city, esp Pittsburgh, that I often praise as unique, cultural, historic, interesting, transit-friendly, walkable, etc. But this doesn't seem to be enough to quell the perpetual Cleveland bashers -- I really don't get it.
Absolute BS. I was not bashing Cleveland and neither was anyone else in this thread. Its the rampant relentless boosterism of the Cleve homers and they try to take over every thread they possibly can. This is exactly why Cleveland threads were banned, and I'm quite sure you know that.
I'm done, it's so tiresome hearing about the Cleveland orchestra, I will no longer even participate in a thread where this fanaticism starts again, and will not read any posts from certain posters ruin threads by doing this. Why don't you people start your own Cleveland symphony thread and see how long it lasts instead.
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