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Location: Pittsburgh (via Chicago, via Pittsburgh)
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I definitely think one could argue back and forth for a long time regarding Pittsburgh and Celveland's legacy/important history. They are extremely close in that regard. However, I think it is hard to dispute that Pittsburgh has done a better job thus far diversifying and re-building from the fall of industry. I also think that many of Pittsburgh legacy institutions and its urban construct are better integrated throughout the city. For example, does Cleveland have anything similar to Schenley, Frick, Highland, or Riverview Parks integrated into the city neighborhoods? I know it has large parks surrounding the outskirts of the city proper with Cuyahoga Valley Nat'l Park, etc., but that isn't necessarily the same as the old legacy parks built for the city residents back in the day.
Location: Pittsburgh (via Chicago, via Pittsburgh)
3,887 posts, read 5,521,355 times
Reputation: 3107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citykid3785
Easily minneapolis
I guess if you just take city proper Minneapolis, you can compare size, but if you include St. Paul (and its hard not to), the MSP city/metro is a good bit larger than Pittsburgh.
That was almost 40 years ago and nobody speaks of Chicago, New York, and Cleveland in the same breath.
Please, read my quote in the context it was written. I was responding to the quote "Most of the time [in the 1900s], Pittsburgh was the bigger, more important area by a significant amount." This comment is incorrect on a number of levels... So your reactionary comment is totally irrelevant to that discussion.
I also think that many of Pittsburgh legacy institutions and its urban construct are better integrated throughout the city. For example, does Cleveland have anything similar to Schenley, Frick, Highland, or Riverview Parks integrated into the city neighborhoods? I know it has large parks surrounding the outskirts of the city proper with Cuyahoga Valley Nat'l Park, etc., but that isn't necessarily the same as the old legacy parks built for the city residents back in the day.
... ah, try Edgewater Park (beach and park), University Circle (parklike center amidst internationally-recognized cultural institutions), Brookside Park/reservation (to which Cleveland's award-winning zoo is connected), Gordon Park/beach; White City Beach (in Collinwood) ... and Pittsburgh's beaches? ... oh yeah. forgot, it doesn't have any; no lake or ocean nearby.
... also try Rockefeller Park/Cultural Gardens -- beautifully strung along MLK Blvd with John D. Rockefeller's lovely designed stone bridges. And, no, these parks are all within the city limits and not at the outskirts of Cleveland -- and there are some I've overlooked. I respect and enjoy Pittsburgh as a unique, cultural (powerhouse), interesting and historic city, but let's not go off the deep end in negatively portraying Cleveland ... or any other city, for that matter.
Location: Pittsburgh (via Chicago, via Pittsburgh)
3,887 posts, read 5,521,355 times
Reputation: 3107
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
... ah, try Edgewater Park (beach and park), University Circle (parklike center amidst internationally-recognized cultural institutions), Brookside Park/reservation (to which Cleveland's award-winning zoo is connected), Gordon Park/beach; White City Beach (in Collinwood) ... and Pittsburgh's beaches? ... oh yeah. forgot, it doesn't have any; no lake or ocean nearby.
... also try Rockefeller Park/Cultural Gardens -- beautifully strung along MLK Blvd with John D. Rockefeller's lovely designed stone bridges. And, no, these parks are all within the city limits and not at the outskirts of Cleveland -- and there are some I've overlooked. I respect and enjoy Pittsburgh as a unique, cultural (powerhouse), interesting and historic city, but let's not go off the deep end in negatively portraying Cleveland ... or any other city, for that matter.
Not sure why you are coming off so aggressive. I stated in the beginning that its debatable between Cleveland and Pittsburgh and off the bat said Cleveland was a close peer. I enjoy both cities.
University Circle, like you said, is "park-like", and not a park. It is like Oakland-lite. Is Brookside park even different from the zoo itself? Not seeing much parkland there. Gordon Park is just a flat area of land on the shore with lots of parking lots. It seems you are just listing random parks, while I was more alluding to large legacy historic parks that integrate into the cities urban core.
Edgewater Park is fine. Nothing wrong with it, but that is one park compared to several large legacy parks in Pittsburgh. The gardens along MLK Drive are very nice too. Again, I enjoy some aspects of Cleveland and understand its legacy. So not sure how I've "gone off the deep end" and I haven't said anything negative about Cleveland in this thread.
I also find it interesting that you throw in that Pittsburgh isn't on a "beach", like that isn't already well known. It isn't a desert or tropical jungle either, what is your point? I could also say that Cleveland doesn't have anything close to Pittsburgh beautiful, forested hills/mountains right in the city center, many rivers, or proximity to the Laural Highlands, rock climbing, class 5 whitewater, or skiing, but that is just a random geographical argument that has nothing to do with this thread.
The main reason for this was actually natural decrease in average household size, which is much smaller now than in 1950 or 1960. Some cities kept annexing more and more suburbs and edge cities, but Pittsburgh didn't so the population was sure to go down quite a bit.
... ah, try Edgewater Park (beach and park), University Circle (parklike center amidst internationally-recognized cultural institutions), Brookside Park/reservation (to which Cleveland's award-winning zoo is connected), Gordon Park/beach; White City Beach (in Collinwood) ... and Pittsburgh's beaches? ... oh yeah. forgot, it doesn't have any; no lake or ocean nearby.
... also try Rockefeller Park/Cultural Gardens -- beautifully strung along MLK Blvd with John D. Rockefeller's lovely designed stone bridges. And, no, these parks are all within the city limits and not at the outskirts of Cleveland -- and there are some I've overlooked. I respect and enjoy Pittsburgh as a unique, cultural (powerhouse), interesting and historic city, but let's not go off the deep end in negatively portraying Cleveland ... or any other city, for that matter.
Next to no one thinks of beaches when they think of Cleveland and Pittsburgh is nearly two hours closer to the ocean than Cleveland lol...
Not true. Since at least 1890, and probably before, Cleveland's population has always been larger than Pittsburgh's. Today, though having shrunk a lot in the last 4 decades, Cuyahoga County still slightly edges out Allegheny County, 1,243,857 to 1,223,048, per the most recent census estimates.
It is true -- I was clearly talking about metro area populations. I stated that, and even posted a link with the census numbers.
City limits are completely arbitrary, they're all different land area sizes, and were constantly changing back then - they cannot be used for comparisons. Unless you think Indianapolis is a bigger and more important area than Boston, for example. Cleveland city limits have more land area than Pittsburgh's, and has for a long time. Using a county doesn't make sense either for the same reasons. The metro area or MSA population metric, is designed for this purpose and is the one that is definitive, and accepted by most people including most people on this board. If you don't believe that do a search on threads that argue it, there are dozens of them.
Some people argue for doing a population radius from the center of town, which is certainly more feasible for comparisons than just city populations, but has it's problems too.
Please, read my quote in the context it was written. I was responding to the quote "Most of the time [in the 1900s], Pittsburgh was the bigger, more important area by a significant amount." This comment is incorrect on a number of levels... So your reactionary comment is totally irrelevant to that discussion.
The comment was perfectly correct, YOU incorrectly thought that I was talking about city limits population, which is ridiculous because almost everyone on this board knows they can't be used to compare between cities. they are useful for government function only, outside of that city populations are meaningless.
You should check out the link I posted before, I'll include it again...
That was almost 40 years ago and nobody speaks of Chicago, New York, and Cleveland in the same breath.
Corporate employment and corporate services are still an important part of the Cleveland economy. Among the 20 largest U.S. metros, reportedly only Greater Minnesota has a higher percentage of corporate employment than northeast Ohio (likely equivalent to the Cleveland-Akron-Canton CSA).
With Carnegie Mellon and the University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh's eminence as a center of higher learning is its most important distinction when compared to Cleveland, where comparable institutions are Case Western and Cleveland State University. Cleveland does have very good liberal colleges, particularly Oberlin, and robust, taxpayer subsidized community colleges which are an important part of the Greater Cleveland economy.
The Cleveland Museum of Art, the Cleveland Orchestra and the Playhouse Square theater complex far exceed their counterparts in Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh has a much better natural history museum and the superb national aviary. The fact that Cleveland was a dominant corporate center until late in the 20th century (major law firms and even a "Big Eight" accounting firm were headquartered in Cleveland) is reflected in Cleveland's cultural institutions. Much of that wealth still is resident in Greater Cleveland.
Unlike in Pittsburgh, Cleveland's cultural institutions have received massive investment in the 21st century. The Cleveland Museum of Art now even wows foreign visitors with its leading technological innovations and a magnificent building.
Between the Cleveland Museum of Art and the Cleveland Cinematheque at the Cleveland Institute of Art, Cleveland is a center for art, foreign, independent and historic film viewing.
Lake Erie offers a superior recreational asset compared to anything in Greater Pittsburgh, reflected in the large number or marinas in Greater Cleveland.
At the end of 2018, downtown Cleveland reportedly had 17,500 residents, with several large residential projects still under construction.
Both Pittsburgh and Cleveland have three major pro sports located in downtown venues. Few cities of comparable size can match this.
Last edited by WRnative; 11-29-2019 at 12:31 PM..
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