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Is this thread a good example of the reason why Cleveland threads had been banned for a while?
It's only one Cleveland poster who is downright abrasive. I didn't even bother to respond to his most recent borderline rude long-winded reply to me. Otherwise the other Cleveland boosters tend to be more nuanced/fair-and-balanced.
He's only happy if you agree Cleveland blows Pittsburgh out of the water on every metric. Even Cleveland's other regulars can admit Pittsburgh beats Cleveland at some things, and EVERY Pittsburgh "homer" on this forum can easily give the nod to Cleveland being better on many fronts. Our cities are so close and so similar that we should be working more collaboratively---not competitively---to better the entire Northeastern Ohio/Western PA region.
That one poster actually made me curious enough to visit Cleveland, and I fell in love with the city. His condescension is a HUGE turn-off, though. Peter1948 similarly "sold" me on adding Louisville as a stop on our multi-city-tour to St. Louis and back earlier this year, and I'm glad he did. He's not NEARLY as condescending as this other poster, though.
It's a shame because this one poster alone who has a vendetta against any city NOT Cleveland derails what could otherwise be wonderful discussions about Cleveland. Anyone who thinks either Cleveland OR Pittsburgh are "perfect" are deluding themselves.
It's only one Cleveland poster who is downright abrasive. I didn't even bother to respond to his most recent borderline rude long-winded reply to me. Otherwise the other Cleveland boosters tend to be more nuanced/fair-and-balanced.
He's only happy if you agree Cleveland blows Pittsburgh out of the water on every metric. Even Cleveland's other regulars can admit Pittsburgh beats Cleveland at some things, and EVERY Pittsburgh "homer" on this forum can easily give the nod to Cleveland being better on many fronts. Our cities are so close and so similar that we should be working more collaboratively---not competitively---to better the entire Northeastern Ohio/Western PA region.
That one poster actually made me curious enough to visit Cleveland, and I fell in love with the city. His condescension is a HUGE turn-off, though. Peter1948 similarly "sold" me on adding Louisville as a stop on our multi-city-tour to St. Louis and back earlier this year, and I'm glad he did. He's not NEARLY as condescending as this other poster, though.
It's a shame because this one poster alone who has a vendetta against any city NOT Cleveland derails what could otherwise be wonderful discussions about Cleveland. Anyone who thinks either Cleveland OR Pittsburgh are "perfect" are deluding themselves.
Both Cleveland and "The Burgh" are interesting, worthwhile cities to visit and live in. I sometime question the City vs. City framework of this page because, obviously, people are passionate about their city and sometimes discussions turn into debates which can become personal.
Both Cleveland and "The Burgh" are interesting, worthwhile cities to visit and live in. I sometime question the City vs. City framework of this page because, obviously, people are passionate about their city and sometimes discussions turn into debates which can become personal.
Honestly, the pissing matches between two cities are the best city vs. city threads. I say that because often you end up with people asking for comparisons of multiple smaller cities, or two very odd comparisons - and frankly very few of us have a ton of experience with all the cities in the country,
Speaking personally, I've lived in Pittsburgh, Detroit, and DC. I've spent enough time over the years in Boston, NYC, and Philly that I know these cities pretty well. I've spent enough time in Cleveland, New Orleans, San Francisco, Louisville, etc to have some feeling on those cities. But if someone asks me about a city I have no experience with (LA, Minneapolis, St. Louis, etc) I'll have very little intelligent to say.
Some of this has been alluded to between the tit for tat arguments, but is it really a surprise that a thread asking "which city compares to Pittsburgh ..." that Cleveland is the one most often brought up? The cities/metros are almost the exact same size and both followed almost the exact population trajectories. Both were industrial mammoths that punched way above their weight class in the era when the US became the world's economic power. Both dealt with industrial collapse .... Pittsburgh a little harder and a decade earlier due to its dependancy on steel, where Cleveland had the auto industry to kind of fall back on, which ended up collapsing locally in the 80s. Both are reinventing themselves, with Pittsburgh being slightly ahead at this point, though Cleveland has been picking things up the past five or so years and has been beating Pittsburgh in job and GDP gains recently.
Even culturally, the metros are about as identical as it comes. Both are heavily Slavic/Eastern European (Cleveland a little moreso) and Italian/Southern European (Pittsburgh a little moreso) dominated. After that, both have significant black (Cleveland a little higher), Irish (Pittsburgh a little higher) and Jewish (both about identical) populations.
You have to split hairs to find big differences ... Cleveland has a significant Puerto Rican population much like its other eastern Great Lakes sister cities, Buffalo and Rochester, where as Pittsburgh has virtually no Latino/Hispanic community. The other major difference is the housing stock with Cleveland being wood frame doubles and larger apartment dominated and Pittsburgh having rowhouses set right to its narrow streets, but that is mainly due to topography.
Even going down to the specifics asked in the original post, I don't think you will find too much difference between the metros. Pittsburgh probably wins in typical urban parks, but Cleveland does have Edgewater and it has the network of Metropark systems that links to the Cuyahoga Valley National Park that encompasses the entire metro (and Akron).
Restaurants, lol, it's laughable to compare Italian places. Both cities are probably as good as it gets there off the East Coast. I'm still finding great Italian restaurants in Cleveland (Guiseppe's in Northfield is a recent one). I'm sure Pittsburgh also has hundreds of great little Italian joints. Pittsburgh has paninis, Cleveland has Polish Boys; though you can get a good panini in Cleveland and I'm guessing you can get a good Polish Boy in Pittsburgh. Again, since the cities are so culturally similar, I don't think there is any difference in restaurants ... though if you like Puerto Rican food, that may be where Cleveland gets the nod since there are dozens of small, authentic places to choose from.
Civic institutions also has to be a wash, and both are top notch. If you consider higher education in that, you can argue Pittsburgh then comes out on top. CM=CWRU, Duquense=John Carroll, Pittsburgh>>>Cleveland State. But it gets a little closer if you add Kent State (and University of Akron) to go along with CSU. The three schools (and Youngstown State) do collaborate (IE combined med school) and between them there isn't a shortage of finding a solid (even if it isn't elite) program to get into. Both have a bunch of smaller colleges, though, Cleveland's proximity to elite small liberal arts schools such as Oberlin and College of Wooster is tough to beat.
Cleveland probably wins in medical (if that counts as well) but it's not like Pittsburgh is a slouch there either.
Speaking of collaboration, I 100 percent agree with SteelCityRising in that Cleveland and Pittsburgh's leaders need to come together in some sort of economic development pact to attract new age industries to the region (linked by train transit ... that part is a pipedream though thanks to both our state governments). Not only do both Cleveland and Pittsburgh still stand on their own, but feeding off each other could benefit both on top of all the other urban areas between/or adjacent to each (Akron, Canton, Youngstown, Ohio Valley, Mon Valley) to get off them of the mat. Overall, you're talking about a 20-something county area that is almost the same in size and population as the state of Massachusetts.
If you think outside that arbitrary line (of mostly land) that separates eastern Ohio and western Pennsylvania, it's really a region with two major anchor cities that has close to 7 million people that features multiple world class universities, multiple world class hospitals, 6 professional sports teams (2 NFL, 2 MLB, NBA and NHL), a Great Lake and a major river, a plethora of outdoor/cultural amenities and a cost of living that blows away the coasts.
Browns fans can still hate Steelers fans and vice versa (which IMO is the biggest reason there is that hatred/rivalry that, outside of that arbitrary state line, that has most divided the two). Since pro sports are important for each, Pittsburgh would then be able to be ok rooting for the Cavs. Cleveland would be ok rooting for the Penguins. Baseball wouldn't change (Pirates-Indians is nothing of a rivarly playing in different leagues, lol).
Last edited by ClevelandBrown; 12-09-2019 at 06:44 PM..
^ the biggest most obvious difference between the two cities is the black population. A lot of the anti Cleveland sentiment in relating it to cities that are commonly assumed "better" has a lot to do with this imo.
^ the biggest most obvious difference between the two cities is the black population. A lot of the anti Cleveland sentiment in relating it to cities that are commonly assumed "better" has a lot to do with this imo.
I agree with this, in a way.
I guess that may actually be the biggest difference between the two (and local Clevelanders ARE a big reason for it). Pittsburgh, while being much less black, still has a noticeable black population that is more spread out from what I've experienced ... most neighborhoods/burbs are like 5 to 30 percent. Where as Cleveland goes from 1 to more like 100 percent ... and those 100 percent black areas (in a lot of cases true ... but not just because it's black) are ones people say avoid. But Cleveland also has places that are overwhelmingly black that are just as safe as similar white places at the same time.
Still, I think the two metros are way more similar than they are different. But will agree that Cleveland probably has better black areas (since Pittsburgh has relatively few of them). Pittsburgh metro probably also has worse majority white areas than Cleveland (McKees Rocks, McKeesport, Aliquippa, probably a bunch of city neighborhoods).
My post 50 cites several points of relative excellence in Pittsburgh compared to Cleveland, most notably and extremely importantly the eminence of Pittsburgh's higher educational institutions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
Corporate employment and corporate services are still an important part of the Cleveland economy. Among the 20 largest U.S. metros, reportedly only Greater Minnesota has a higher percentage of corporate employment than northeast Ohio (likely equivalent to the Cleveland-Akron-Canton CSA).
With Carnegie Mellon and the University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh's eminence as a center of higher learning is its most important distinction when compared to Cleveland, where comparable institutions are Case Western and Cleveland State University. Cleveland does have very good liberal colleges, particularly Oberlin, and robust, taxpayer subsidized community colleges which are an important part of the Greater Cleveland economy.
The Cleveland Museum of Art, the Cleveland Orchestra and the Playhouse Square theater complex far exceed their counterparts in Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh has a much better natural history museum and the superb national aviary. The fact that Cleveland was a dominant corporate center until late in the 20th century (major law firms and even a "Big Eight" accounting firm were headquartered in Cleveland) is reflected in Cleveland's cultural institutions. Much of that wealth still is resident in Greater Cleveland.
Unlike in Pittsburgh, Cleveland's cultural institutions have received massive investment in the 21st century. The Cleveland Museum of Art now even wows foreign visitors with its leading technological innovations and a magnificent building.
Between the Cleveland Museum of Art and the Cleveland Cinematheque at the Cleveland Institute of Art, Cleveland is a center for art, foreign, independent and historic film viewing.
Lake Erie offers a superior recreational asset compared to anything in Greater Pittsburgh, reflected in the large number or marinas in Greater Cleveland.
At the end of 2018, downtown Cleveland reportedly had 17,500 residents, with several large residential projects still under construction.
Both Pittsburgh and Cleveland have three major pro sports located in downtown venues. Few cities of comparable size can match this.
Your Post 84. I didn't object to ANY of your comments in this post, even though I'm not certain that University Circle is "nowhere near the secondary urban node that Oakland is" actually is a representative comparison. Two reasons that I decided not to object is because Oakland almost is twice as large as Cleveland's University Circle, and because both Carnegie Mellon and the Univ. of Pittsburgh are in Oakland. It's also not always clear what are the borders of Cleveland's University Circle, especially with discussions of the Greater University Circle increasingly dominant. E.g., technically the Cleveland Clinic is only immediately adjacent to University Circle. As it is, University Circle clearly is Cleveland's secondary economic node and its primary cultural center, just as Oakland is in Pittsburgh. If surrounding neighborhoods such as the Midtown Corridor were included in University Circle to raise the physical size comparison closer to Oakland, it would be interesting how the jobs totals compare relatively. University Circle also is surrounded by areas prime for redevelopment; I don't know if this is equally true for Oakland.
I like Cleveland, and I think it has Pittsburgh beat by several metrics, including nightlife in Downtown, presence of useful rail transit, a vibrant and visible black middle class, and a much more organic mix of residential and commercial uses in the oldest neighborhoods like Ohio City and Tremont. And there are far more first-ring suburbs of Cleveland which have charming walkable downtown areas than you find in Allegheny County.
That said, it is not quite Pittsburgh's peer when it comes to urbanity. As others noted, white flight and urban renewal hit Cleveland much harder than Pittsburgh overall, and the downtown area is much more riddled with parking lots. Walkscore is lower, as is overall transit utilization. There is nothing akin to the East End (mostly Squirrel Hill, Shadyside, and Point Breeze) - a large, genuinely wealthy swathe of neighborhoods within city limits. University Circle is nowhere near the secondary urban node that Oakland is. And - just speaking subjectively - I don't think the built vernacular of Great Lakes cities (detached wood-framed homes set back generously from the sidewalk) creates as much of an urban vibe as the closely-packed rowhouse neighborhoods of Pittsburgh.
I do think in terms of urbanity, Baltimore is the closest to Pittsburgh. It's about a half-step higher, and it scores better on Walkscore and transit utilization - it's clearly superior in some ways. I do find it interesting that the wealthy white areas of Baltimore (the "white L" are basically similar in scope/population to Pittsburgh's East End. Functionally speaking, Baltimore is kinda like Pittsburgh with three times as much ghetto.
In your post 90, you listed 25 comparisons between Cleveland and Pittsburgh, 10 of which ranked Pittsburgh as superior and 1 ranked the two cities equally (Lake Erie with Pittsburgh's rivers).
In my post 96, I took exception with four of your comparisons that ranked Pittsburgh higher than Cleveland, and with stating that Lake Erie is equally comparable with Pittsburgh's rivers, but I never accused you of being a "homer." I just presented my arguments and documented them.
1) Knowing downtown Cleveland very well, it's ridiculous IMO to compare the very short East 4th St. alone with another a longer entertainment strip in Pittsburgh, as I described and documented.
2) I disagreed that redeveloped Public Square was inferior to Pittsburgh's Market Square. You later agreed that looking at the squares alone that I had a valid point. You said you thought the amenities surrounding Market Square were superior, and I strongly disagreed in a later post and documented my reasoning.
3) I've stated and will repeatedly state that Lake Erie is a magnificent recreational resource unequaled in Pittsburgh. And Cleveland with the Cuyahoga River and the several other significant rivers in Greater Cleveland means that Cleveland and Greater Cleveland has many miles of river vistas, gorges, and river recreational activities, in addition to over 85 miles of Lake Erie shoreline. One difference in Greater Cleveland is that all of the significant rivers feature large marina areas at their mouths. Dining at a river restaurant on any of the rivers and watching the diverse boat traffic is entertaining, especially the Cuyahoga River where large lake freighters fill the river and require the raising and lowering of bridges along the river valley.
4) As highlighted below, I added a single sentence stating that Cleveland had superior medical institutions. One point that I haven't made until now, contrary to your assumption, University Hospitals provides significant services to international clientele.
Cleveland has three downtown entertainment districts, not including Playhouse Square. There are some great entertainment venues in the Warehouse District and East Flats in addition to East 4th and the Gateway District.
I'm not at all certain that downtown Cleveland, especially with Playhouse Square and three other significant entertainment/dining districts, is inferior to downtown Pittsburgh in entertainment, dining, or otherwise.
The West Flats Nautica complex also has some popular entertainment options, especially the Improv, Music Box Supper Club, and the Jacobs Pavilion in the summer. See venues here:
Christie's Cabaret also in Nautica although not listed in the venues.
Following its redevelopment, I think Cleveland's 10-acre Public Square is better than Market Square in Pittsburgh, but I haven't been to Market Square in several years. Cleveland's 26-acre Mall is more central to downtown than Pittsburgh's 36-acre Point State Park; the Cleveland Mall is divided into A (Veterans Memorial Plaza), B, and C sections. Following its redesign, it's contains many acres of green space in Malls B and C.
Downtown Cleveland's free bus trolleys also provide superb access across downtown. I don't know if Pittsburgh since my last visit has added any free bus service to supplement its free downtown rail transit options.
With both the Cleveland Clinic and University Hospital systems, healthcare institutions in Cleveland are more renown.
Cleveland's Lake Erie shoreline definitely isn't developed in the most intelligent manner, especially with Burke Lakefront Airport occupying much of the downtown lakefront, but IMO it still is ridiculous to claim that Lake Erie isn't a magnificent recreational resource in Greater Cleveland unequaled in Pittsburgh, especially by just Pittsburgh's rivers.
Your post 100 then accused me of being "condescending" towards Pittsburgh. You also repeatedly referred to me as a "homer." You, not me, started the name-calling in this passive aggressive post. What probably bothered me the most, as I'm used to other Pittsburgh posters repeatedly labeling me a "homer," was your misrepresentation of the University Hospitals system. As noted, it is an international center; it has notable research capabilities (even compared to the Cleveland Clinic), and it is a regional system with facilities throughout northeast Ohio, including 9 emergency rooms and one trauma center.
I agree it's hard to compare the Strip and West Side Market. Pittsburgh has no direct comparison to West Side Market since our own public market became a garage for Ford Argo AI's autonomous vehicles. The Produce Terminal Building is currently being rehabilitated, but it's still unclear as to whether the final product will be more along the lines of a West Side Market or more along the lines of high storefront rents meaning the tenants will be the likes of Starbucks, Chipotle, Panera, etc.
Cleveland also doesn't have any multi-block-long stretch of mom-and-pop markets, vendors, souvenir shops, restaurants, etc. that rivals the Strip District. I really do like West Side Market. I also really like the Strip District. This was perhaps an "apples to oranges" comparison.
I mean I appreciate your passion and love for Cleveland. It was thanks to your contributions to this forum that I made my first day-trip to Cleveland from my apartment near Downtown Pittsburgh several years ago, and we make it a point to return at least twice per year because we enjoy our visits to Cleveland.
With that being said you can easily come off condescending towards Pittsburgh, which is a turn-off.
Some points:
1.) East Carson Street in Pittsburgh is a very long uninterrupted stretch of blocks that form one large entertainment district. Cleveland's closest answer to this IS East 4th Street, which is much smaller. You can possibly argue that Cleveland's East 4th Street + East Flats + Warehouse District + Playhouse Square + Tremont + Ohio City > Pittsburgh's East Carson Street + North Shore + Station Square + Shadyside + Strip District + East Liberty + Squirrel Hill for nightlife, but for my post I was just looking at each city's PRIMARY uninterrupted entertainment street or district. In that case if you're going to argue that East 4th Street is "better" than East Carson Street, then you're just being a homer.
2.) You may have misinterpreted my post. I said Downtown Cleveland, in my opinion, IS better than Downtown Pittsburgh if you go by the actual defined borders of each neighborhood. However, if you expand the borders in each city to what is generally considered to be the "Greater Downtown", then I think Pittsburgh picking up the Strip District, North Shore, and South Shore/Station Square trumps Cleveland picking up the Flats. I already include Playhouse Square as being Downtown Cleveland just as I already include the Cultural District as being Downtown Pittsburgh.
3.) Cleveland Clinic? Yes. I'd put that right up there with the Mayo Clinic and Johns Hopkins. Cleveland is lucky to have it. The University Hospital System? No. No. No. That's more homerism/boosterism on your part. UPMC (Pittsburgh) is MUCH more renown than the Cleveland University Hospital network. UPMC has an international presence now and is duking it out with Geisinger for market share in Central PA and Eastern PA as we speak. Does the Cleveland University Hospital system have any sort of international renown or any significant presence outside of Cleveland? No. UPMC does. UPMC fuels Pittsburgh's ability to attract skilled immigrants much more than the Cleveland University Hospital. I'd argue Cleveland Clinic is more prestigious for a skilled immigrant than UPMC, though.
4.) The INTERIOR of Public Square is better than the INTERIOR of Market Square since the renovation of Public Square. I'll give you that one. The perimeter? I find the buildings and businesses lining Market Square much more appealing, creating a much more aesthetically-appealing environment than the exterior of Public Square, which still features a huge surface parking lot at one end. If and when Sherwin Williams builds a new HQ Tower on that lot? I may change my tune. If that remains an empty lot? No. Sorry. There are no empty lots anywhere near Market Square. It's all dense.
5.) I'm not dignifying your unabashed put-down of Pittsburgh's three rivers with an eloquent response. Just more condescending boosterism.
In my post 100, admittedly annoyed, I unfortunately at times responded to your post in kind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
Candidly, your belittlement of Cleveland often is subjective at best and often easily refuted, such as your denigration below of Cleveland's University Hospitals, Cleveland's and Ohio's second-ranked hospital.
Straw man arguments and deflections, as shown, typify your arguments.
I never, ever argued that East 4th St. is better than East Carson Street. I know East 4th a short street, although with some excellent entertainment venues, including a House of Blues, which does not have a location in Greater Pittsburgh. That's why I pointed out that Cleveland had three other downtown entertainment districts. Cleveland's downtown entertainment venues are within walking distance of each other and also connected by free bus trolley service. So I would argue that "PRIMARY uninterrupted entertainment street or district" is a meaningless straw man argument.
I'm not arguing that downtown Cleveland's entertainment venues are better than downtown Pittsburgh's. I don't have the knowledge of Pittsburgh to even engage in that argument, and I'm not convinced you do either given the inaccuracies in your other posts.
I would note that Playhouse Square events in Cleveland offer both a substantial source of entertainment that surely offers stiff competition to other downtown entertainment venues.
I also would note that the East Flats offers a summer vibe that MAY be absent in Pittsburgh. The East Flats has a Margaritaville, typically found in resort or large destination cities.
Additionally, the 5,000 audience capacity Jacobs Pavilion in the Nautica complex on the West Flats MAY be a summer amenity not readily available in downtown Pittsburgh.
As with many Pittsburgh "homers," your ignorance about Cleveland is easily documented. First of all, there is no such thing as the "Cleveland University Hospital network." The name is simply "University Hospitals." Patients travel from all over the world for treatment at the Cleveland Clinic, so admittedly not much oxygen is left for UH to compete in international markets. As you admitted UPMC is NOT even remotely in the same league with the CC, so what's your point???
University Hospitals both benefits and suffers in competition with the Cleveland Clinic. E.g., UH regularly had one of the highest ranked children's hospitals in the U.S., until the CC opened its own children's hospital, a great black mark on the wasteful U.S. healthcare system IMO.
UH is nationally ranked in 8 adult specialties and 7 children's specialties and is the number 2 ranked hospital in Ohio. UPMC is ranked in 11 adult specialties and 10 children's specialties. UH is ranked higher in the adult specialties of cardiology and heart surgery and neurology and neurosurgery than UPMC, so your indictment of UH reflects pretty poorly on the state of care in Pittsburgh, despite your boosterism. UH has the highest rating possible in 8 procedures and conditions, compared to 9 at UPMC. Of course, comparing UH to UPMC is comparing the second-rated hospital in Cleveland to the top-rated hospital in Pittsburgh and PA, and both UH and UPMC lag far behind the CC in overall rankings and especially in specialty rankings.
UPMC Children's Hospital is 8th ranked in the U.S. I didn't check carefully UPMC children specialties against the highest ranked specialties at both UH Rainbow and at the Cleveland Clinic. But, for example, Rainbow is ranked 7th in neonatology versus 48 at UPMC. Cleveland Clinic is ranked 20th in pediatric cancer versus 33rd at UPMC.
Now, here is what should frighten Pittsburgh residents. UPMC Shadyside receives only a one-star Medicare rating. This is the UPMC hospital rated by U.S. News & World Report.
Perhaps Clevelanders do benefit substantially from the competition inherent in the city's medical duopoly.
Personally, based on the Medicare ratings, I would never, ever have a procedure performed at UPMC Shadyside and would be very happy to instead go the UH Cleveland Medical Center let alone the Cleveland Clinic main campus if I lived in Pittsburgh.
Why do Pittsburgh "homers" post such ignorant posts without even doing a modicum of research???
Again, your subjective opinion, but at least you now admit that Public Square itself now is more attractive than Market Square, and I would argue by a substantial margin.
Personally, I much prefer attractions such as the Soldiers & Sailors Monument, actually on Public Square, and the large skyscrapers that currently frame Cleveland's Public Square. Public Square also is very short walks to East 4th St. and the Warehouse District, let alone all of Cleveland's three downtown sports venues.
Now this perhaps is homerism, but in this day and age I especially enjoy visiting the statue of Tom Johnson overlooking Public Square and remembering a time when men of wealth were dedicated to public service and the welfare of the people. It sends shivers down my spine whenever I read the inscription on the statue.
What I've learned from repeated putdowns of Lake Erie by Pittsburgh posters is the total lack of appreciation for the greatness of Lake Erie, especially given that in summer it's the warmest of the Great Lakes, and it's integral part in the identity and lives of Greater Clevelanders. E.g., almost daily we hear about "lake effect" snow or rain bands on weathercasts.
I went into great detail about Lake Erie and its importance to Greater Clevelanders. See post 68. It's obvious that it went over the heads of persons who have never experienced living near Lake Erie. Post something similar about Pittsburgh's rivers, PLEASE!
In your post 131, you then launched a personal attack accusing me of being "abrasive" and unfair, rude and long-winded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising
It's only one Cleveland poster who is downright abrasive. I didn't even bother to respond to his most recent borderline rude long-winded reply to me. Otherwise the other Cleveland boosters tend to be more nuanced/fair-and-balanced.
He's only happy if you agree Cleveland blows Pittsburgh out of the water on every metric. Even Cleveland's other regulars can admit Pittsburgh beats Cleveland at some things, and EVERY Pittsburgh "homer" on this forum can easily give the nod to Cleveland being better on many fronts. Our cities are so close and so similar that we should be working more collaboratively---not competitively---to better the entire Northeastern Ohio/Western PA region.
That one poster actually made me curious enough to visit Cleveland, and I fell in love with the city. His condescension is a HUGE turn-off, though. Peter1948 similarly "sold" me on adding Louisville as a stop on our multi-city-tour to St. Louis and back earlier this year, and I'm glad he did. He's not NEARLY as condescending as this other poster, though.
It's a shame because this one poster alone who has a vendetta against any city NOT Cleveland derails what could otherwise be wonderful discussions about Cleveland. Anyone who thinks either Cleveland OR Pittsburgh are "perfect" are deluding themselves.
I'm going to refrain from responding in kind to your latest post, even though it's largely devoid of anything but insults and misrepresentations of my arguments.
Contrary to your claim that I want to posit Cleveland as superior to Pittsburgh in "every metric," from my first post, I stated that Pittsburgh very importantly has eminent institutes of higher learning, better than in Cleveland.
I should add that this IMO results in Greater Pittsburgh having a better economy, as reflected in significantly higher per capita personal income.
And I've repeatedly said that Pittsburgh has both the National Aviary, a wonderful place, and a much better natural history museum.
Now, if The National Aviary and the Carnegie Museum of Natural History were in Cleveland, and we noted that they were superior to similar institutions in Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh posters (admittedly likely NOT you) would argue either that nobody cares or that the superiority isn't sufficiently greater to really make a difference. If anybody disagreed with this position of Pittsburgh posters, they would be mocked as "homers" and criticized as being long-winded if they posted factual links documenting the superiority.
As for Peter1948, he believes that because of the University of Louisville and minor league sports in Louisville, that its sports scene is the equal of Cleveland's and Pittsburgh's. He believes that the relatively small Louisville art museum is sufficient to not put Louisville at a disadvantage to Cleveland or Pittsburgh.
Here is one other thing that Pittsburgh has that can't be found in Cleveland -- those great residential neighborhoods that sit well above the city overlooking arguably IMO the best cityscape in the U.S. with downtown Pittsburgh framed by the birth of the Ohio River, by water flow, actually the upper Mississippi River. So much history and beauty.
Oh, yeah, for decades now Pittsburgh has had the better NFL franchise!
Thankfully, not everybody on C-D practices what passes for argument in contemporary America -- undocumented subjective opinion is the equal of documented objective reality, and that insults and falsehoods trump facts.
I've enjoyed your posts in the past, and I'm certain I will again in the future.
Pittsburgh, a city of only 300,000 and metro of 2 million, punches so far above it's weight in terms of cultural amenities, civic institutions, food scene, and built urban form and potential that I struggle to find another city its size that beats it. What do you all think...what other cities come close or beat Pittsburgh of similar size when it comes to these amenities?
I know Cleveland will be a quick response. I know Cleveland has great legacy institutions, but I'd argue it doesn't quite beat Pittsburgh in terms of urban parks and food scene. Very debatable though and a lot will come down to personal preference.
Of the above criteria San Juan Puerto Rico destroys Pittsburgh on every level, /thread.
^ the biggest most obvious difference between the two cities is the black population. A lot of the anti Cleveland sentiment in relating it to cities that are commonly assumed "better" has a lot to do with this imo.
I'd mostly agree with this. When it comes to black presence (and corresponding white flight) Pittsburgh is on the far low end of the spectrum for a rust belt city, while Cleveland is around in the middle (and somewhere like Detroit is on the opposite pole). There's been a lot written over the past few decades about how the "it" cities when it comes to national buzz happen to be very white - or at least when they do have minorities, tend to not have a lot of black people (Portland, Seattle, San Francisco, Austin, Denver, Minneapolis, etc). Also that - despite how gentrification is often portrayed as rich white folks pushing out poor black folks - the most likely determinant of a neighborhood gentrifying is being a working-class hood which is less than 40% black - which means that cities with more poor white neighborhoods (which Pittsburgh had in spades) will by default experience more gentrification.
But as I noted upthread, one of the big differences between Pittsburgh and Cleveland is there just isn't the same breakdown of city and suburbs when it comes to historical concentration of industry and wealth. Pittsburgh spread the mills - and thus the poor mill neighborhoods - around pretty far and wide in the flat areas by the rivers, leading to a lot of working-class zones outside of the city which could plausibly be called "suburbs" - some of which later experienced white flight of their own (Braddock, Homestead, etc). And as a counter, it ended up with a very large area within city limits which remained middle-class to upper-middle class and wealthy all the way through even the worst periods of urban disinvestment. This is not only unlike Cleveland - it's unlike virtually everywhere else in the Rust Belt, where the upper-middle class holdouts were either much smaller or entirely absent.
But as I noted upthread, one of the big differences between Pittsburgh and Cleveland is there just isn't the same breakdown of city and suburbs when it comes to historical concentration of industry and wealth. Pittsburgh spread the mills - and thus the poor mill neighborhoods - around pretty far and wide in the flat areas by the rivers, leading to a lot of working-class zones outside of the city which could plausibly be called "suburbs" - some of which later experienced white flight of their own (Braddock, Homestead, etc). And as a counter, it ended up with a very large area within city limits which remained middle-class to upper-middle class and wealthy all the way through even the worst periods of urban disinvestment. This is not only unlike Cleveland - it's unlike virtually everywhere else in the Rust Belt, where the upper-middle class holdouts were either much smaller or entirely absent.
This likely has much to do with geography. It wasn't as easy in Pittsburgh to move to more distant suburbs, and estates as it was in Greater Cleveland (Hunting Valley being the ultimate destination) and other more flat U.S. metropolitan areas. Your point that the available, prospective areas in Pittsburgh already were occupied by mill towns is fascinating.
Pittsburgh also likely didn't have anything like the Van Sweringen brothers who moved heaven and earth (the latter literally) to facilitate the success of their Shaker Hts. garden community.
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