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It's not about the existence flights. It's the fact that a large number of people are using them to go between the two cities.
Okay, but PHL is 100 miles from LGA tho, while SFO is 34 miles from SJC so apples and oranges.
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So let's see, people transit non-stop between PHL and NYC via airplane, train, BoltBus/MegaBus, and car because the demand is strong enough to warrant it.
Yet strangely the region falls far short when it comes to the only criteria that counts for combining metro areas, 15% or greater commuter exchange.
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People transit nonstop between SF and SJ exactly how?
CalTrain goes from Downtown to Downtown.
Freeways 101 and 280 goea Downtown to Downtown.
Oh, and BART( SFs heavy rail subway) is currently expanding to downtown SJ.
Does the NY city subway go all the way to downtown Philly?
Between around Hartford and Wilmington or so is as cohesive as the Bay Area. But the entire Northeast Corridor certainly isn't. There are gaps between Philly and Baltimore and particularly between Hartford and Boston.
But the core 200 miles or so, yeah I think it can be compared. Hartford to Wilmington has no break.
definitely a more pronounced break between the connecting fringes of the New York City CSA and the Philadelphia CSA than between the San Francisco MSA and San Jose MSA. It's pure crazy to say otherwise. Is it a massive difference? Well, that depends on what massive means to you, but there is a difference in both cost and time in shuttlinng around the different respective cores.
That said, join my newsletter to force MTA, SEPTA, and NJT to run interoperable through-running commuter rail. It will be a sure hit with everyone.
Okay, but PHL is 100 miles from LGA tho, while SFO is 34 miles from SJC so apples and oranges.
Yet strangely the region falls far short when it comes to the only criteria that counts for combining metro areas, 15% or greater commuter exchange.
CalTrain goes from Downtown to Downtown.
Freeways 101 and 280 goea Downtown to Downtown.
Oh, and BART( SFs heavy rail subway) is currently expanding to downtown SJ.
Does the NY city subway go all the way to downtown Philly?
Gist of it all is very much true. Only nitpicking point is the idea that BART is really a heavy rail substitute equivalent to NYC or Philly subway systems. That part isn't quite true as BART runs a lot more like a hybrid of commuter rail and rapid transit systems and only gets its heavy rail subway like characteristics when many lines are interlined as they are in parts of Oakland and all of San Francisco, and that nosedives a bit on weekends and fairly early on evenings (though not as bad as most commuter rail does on weekends and evenings). However, all your other points are still valid and if the extension of BART continues service the same way it does at its current southern East Bay terminus, then at least there will be rapid transit service between large parts of the East Bay and South Bay on weekdays.
What would have been amazing foresight would have been to make BART and Caltrain interoperable from the beginning and have made a real ring loop for the system, but it's much too late and arduous to make that a reality now and will only become progressively harder as both incompatible systems continue to expand. What an amazing and relatively simple feat that would have been to have understood that these places would have operated as a single metropolitan area back in the planning stages of BART. And what an amazing screw-up to not have realized it at the time. Indian Gauge? Really?
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 05-06-2016 at 05:40 PM..
Okay, but PHL is 100 miles from LGA tho, while SFO is 34 miles from SJC so apples and oranges.
Yet strangely the region falls far short when it comes to the only criteria that counts for combining metro areas, 15% or greater commuter exchange.
CalTrain goes from Downtown to Downtown.
Freeways 101 and 280 goea Downtown to Downtown.
Oh, and BART( SFs heavy rail subway) is currently expanding to downtown SJ.
Does the NY city subway go all the way to downtown Philly?
Technically they make the 15 percent with Burlington County NJ. Mercer now meets the 25 percent with the NYC MSA but was not combined due to historic alignments but technically they do today. That said the distance is longer and not as densely developed as the thin straps on either sides of the bay. Yet there are as many people living in space between (but not including the cities) NYC and Philly as live in the whole of Bay with the bay cities included. The two metres would be like plopping LA, the island empire, and San Diego extending from ST down and connected in terms of population. I find the bay area to be much more of one area though but I think a lot of people don't realize close and how much connection there really is between the NYC and Philly metres how much they overlap, albeit not as dense but over a larger swath
Also multiple rail lines do connect today including regional rail lines though they require a transfer. NjT wants to run all the way to 30th from NY Penn but SEPTA has been blocking because They believe it will lose revenue and the NE corridor is in need of additional tracks. This is by far the most heavily traveled passenger rail route in the US. Trains every few minutes today. Actually peak headway across SEPTA NjT and Amtrak are close to peak heavy rail headway with trains running every few minutes on the line
That said it's not as dense but is very connected. Though to me very separate cities when compared to the bay
People don't fly between NYC and Philly unless connecting. It takes far longer with security etc then does rail or even car. Amtrak today can be done in 62 minutes downtown to to downtown and will get faster and can be as cheap as 38 bucks round-trip if booked in advance
Also PHL and EWR are only about 70 miles apart and many times may have similar drive times as SFO to SF as traffic in CA is a mess even with less people. Maybe you need more rail
I think this would have been a better competition if it was Boston vs Philly vs Bay Area. San Francisco isn't even the most populated city in the Bay Area, San Jose is. But yes the Bay Area is more prominent than Boston and Philly at the moment, and i'm a born and raised M*******.
definitely a more pronounced break between the connecting fringes of the New York City CSA and the Philadelphia CSA than between the San Francisco MSA and San Jose MSA. It's pure crazy to say otherwise. Is it a massive difference? Well, that depends on what massive means to you, but there is a difference in both cost and time in shuttlinng around the different respective cores.
That said, join my newsletter to force MTA, SEPTA, and NJT to run interoperable through-running commuter rail. It will be a sure hit with everyone.
NJT wants to do it now extending the NE corridor line to 30TH street. SEPTA is blocking and Amtrak won't give up any slots and the line is already at capacity. I for one would love it even for ease
If the NJT double Deckers took over some regional amtrak it would be huge
Imagine lines from Wilmington to long Island or Harrisburg to Hartford etc.
Technically they make the 15 percent with Burlington County NJ. Mercer now meets the 25 percent with the NYC MSA but was not combined due to historic alignments but technically they do today. That said the distance is longer and not as densely developed as the thin straps on either sides of the bay. Yet there are as many people living in space between (but not including the cities) NYC and Philly as live in the whole of Bay with the bay cities included. The two metres would be like plopping LA, the island empire, and San Diego extending from ST down and connected in terms of population. I find the bay area to be much more of one area though but I think a lot of people don't realize close and how much connection there really is between the NYC and Philly metres how much they overlap, albeit not as dense but over a larger swath
Also multiple rail lines do connect today including regional rail lines though they require a transfer. NjT wants to run all the way to 30th from NY Penn but SEPTA has been blocking because They believe it will lose revenue and the NE corridor is in need of additional tracks. This is by far the most heavily traveled passenger rail route in the US. Trains every few minutes today. Actually peak headway across SEPTA NjT and Amtrak are close to peak heavy rail headway with trains running every few minutes on the line
That said it's not as dense but is very connected. Though to me very separate cities when compared to the bay
People don't fly between NYC and Philly unless connecting. It takes far longer with security etc then does rail or even car. Amtrak today can be done in 62 minutes downtown to to downtown and will get faster and can be as cheap as 38 bucks round-trip if booked in advance
Also PHL and EWR are only about 70 miles apart and many times may have similar drive times as SFO to SF as traffic in CA is a mess even with less people. Maybe you need more rail
The requiring a transfer part disrupts everything and not being dense but connected can only be overcome by easy transit connection. I'm fine with reserving some room away from development--I think that's great. However, to keep them truly connected means that transit among these nodes has to be quick and affordable.
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Originally Posted by tysmith95
I think this would have been a better competition if it was Boston vs Philly vs Bay Area. San Francisco isn't even the most populated city in the Bay Area, San Jose is. But yes the Bay Area is more prominent than Boston and Philly at the moment, and i'm a born and raised M*******.
Sure, that's fine, but you can also just take it as the San Francisco Bay Area which is what the entity is actually called which is going to be the case regardless of how much bigger San Jose is than San Francisco. the competition is the same and I think everyone understands it. Do it by CSAs if you wish, but the Bay Area CSA, at least in pertaining to SF, East Bay, the Peninsula, and South Bay, are very obviously one.
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Originally Posted by kidphilly
NJT wants to do it now extending the NE corridor line to 30TH street. SEPTA is blocking and Amtrak won't give up any slots and the line is already at capacity. I for one would love it even for ease
If the NJT double Deckers took over some regional amtrak it would be huge
Imagine lines from Wilmington to long Island or Harrisburg to Hartford etc.
All this talk is obviously giving me the largest boner this side of the Mississippi. Do some more.
Location: Watching half my country turn into Gilead
3,530 posts, read 4,172,482 times
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Originally Posted by qworldorder
Pine to Vine raised a good point, though, about transportation links. While we have data about overall Amtrak, commuter rail and bus ridership, does anyone have specific breakdowns of actually traveled routes? Not a list of busiest stations or overall ridership numbers, but something specific between two points, like say Northeast Regional ridership between Philadelphia and New York City?
Quoting myself here because I'm genuinely interested if those numbers exist--and not just for points between BosWash, but other areas, like ridership between San Francisco and San Jose. Not station or total commuter numbers, but actual corridor ridership. I can't seem to find those specific stats, and I'm wondering if they're even recorded. Would add a new layer to the discussion as to what constitutes "connectivity". Thanks in advance.
Amtrak Acela is a major national rail line that covers major NE metro areas. BART is an intra-city heavy rail metro system. Once again, total apples and oranges.
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