Calling All Preterists and Futurist - #1(Matt.10:23) (believers, scripture, priest)

[Romulus0]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

Yes I see your point. And I am certainly not hyper preterist but at the same time I see that sin and death were overcome on the cross, and salvation is brought at the second coming.

If salvation comes at the second appearing(coming) what exactly completes salvation is where Full-Preterist's such as myself disagree with the common understanding of salvation.

We can both agree that salvation is complete at the second appearing as shown in Hebrews:

Hebrews 9

28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

We can both agree that salvation is the total forgiveness of sins but is not that the case now? Let me explain.

If salvation is complete at the second appearing of Christ then what completes our salvation? The common understanding is that the "resurrection of the dead" is what completes salvation since it happens at the return of Christ. But, must it be physical? I believe you are pointing to Christ's own physical resurrection and we must partake in that as well to achieve salvation. Am I correct in stating this?

The question I am asking is, is our physical resurrection the completion of our salvation since this is the only event that we partake in at the second appearing. Christ's physical appearance does nothing for our salvation or the forgiveness of sins, the physical renewing of the heavens and the earth
does not do anything for our salvation, and if you believe in the physical rapture, then how does that complete salvation? The second appearing was the completion of salvation according to Hebrews and the only event that completes our salvation must be our physical resurrection in which our old body is done away with and we are given another body. Do we agree on this?

Now, if we agree so far, what is salvation? Is not Salvation, sin being taken care of once and for all? Because sin cannot dwell in the presence of God, Christ taking sin upon Himself for us, does not this make us now holy through Him and we can now be in the presence of God(relationship) just as before the fall?

The question I ask if this is salvation then, how does our physical renewal (resurrection) take care of sin? We must face the question

Where does sin reside?

If physical resurrection is necessary and the completion of salvation occurs at that time when Christ returns and the resurrection of the dead/1st resurrection happens at that time, then sin resides in flesh since we are physically resurrected and that completes salvation. It is the nature of resurrection where Full-Preterist's disagree.

If the second appearing/coming has not happened yet then salvation has not come because the resurrection of the dead has not occurred yet.

Originally Posted by Romulus0

If salvation comes at the second appearing(coming) what exactly completes salvation is where Full-Preterist's such as myself disagree with the common understanding of salvation.

We can both agree that salvation is complete at the second appearing as shown in Hebrews:

Hebrews 9

28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

We can both agree that salvation is the total forgiveness of sins but is not that the case now? Let me explain.

If salvation is complete at the second appearing of Christ then what completes our salvation? The common understanding is that the "resurrection of the dead" is what completes salvation since it happens at the return of Christ. But, must it be physical? I believe you are pointing to Christ's own physical resurrection and we must partake in that as well to achieve salvation. Am I correct in stating this?

The question I am asking is, is our physical resurrection the completion of our salvation since this is the only event that we partake in at the second appearing. Christ's physical appearance does nothing for our salvation or the forgiveness of sins, the physical renewing of the heavens and the earth
does not do anything for our salvation, and if you believe in the physical rapture, then how does that complete salvation? The second appearing was the completion of salvation according to Hebrews and the only event that completes our salvation must be our physical resurrection in which our old body is done away with and we are given another body. Do we agree on this?

Now, if we agree so far, what is salvation? Is not Salvation, sin being taken care of once and for all? Because sin cannot dwell in the presence of God, Christ taking sin upon Himself for us, does not this make us now holy through Him and we can now be in the presence of God(relationship) just as before the fall?

The question I ask if this is salvation then, how does our physical renewal (resurrection) take care of sin? We must face the question

Where does sin reside?

If physical resurrection is necessary and the completion of salvation occurs at that time when Christ returns and the resurrection of the dead/1st resurrection happens at that time, then sin resides in flesh since we are physically resurrected and that completes salvation. It is the nature of resurrection where Full-Preterist's disagree.

If the second appearing/coming has not happened yet then salvation has not come because the resurrection of the dead has not occurred yet.

I think this is the problem with Preterism (full-Preterism), the physical resurrection seems to be abundantly obvious in the Scriptures. Paul even mentions the redemptiom of our bodies in Rom.8:23. Christ's physicsl resurrection is the type and firstfruits. This was the disciples hope - glorification.

I see salvation as three things:

1) Spiritual Justification - This comes when a person has exercised faith in the gospel and has been regenerated and born again. This is an innner reality and the Spirit of God now becomes the promise down-payment of the future salvation to come (Eph.1:13-14) This is also a LEGAL STANDING before God - JUSTIFCATION. It does not mean that sin is removed but that before God we have no guilt because of what Christ accomplished on the Cross. The PENALTY of sin has been dealt with. We have not become righteouse but we are DECLARED righteouse by faith - that is a Big Difference.

2) When the Spirit indwells the believer and Christ has paid the penalty for sin we become SANCTIFIED - that is useful for the MASTER. We have been cleansed but we still need to be cleansed as we sin - We have an Advocate as I John says in 1:8-2:2. We still have sin to deal with because we are still in our bodies. This is the war that is in our flesh even though we have the Spirit of God in us. But that Spirit will give life to our mortal bodies in the future (Rom.8:9-11). Therefore, the POWER of sin has been dealt with, as well, until that time.

3) The only thing the disciples were waiting for was the finl part of salvation - GLORIFIATION - the redemption of the body.

For the disciples the future salvation was either the coming of the Lord for victory over their enimies from their persucutions or the resurrection of their body.

Now back to Matt.10:23:

So far there seems to be four basic interpretations: 1) Triumphal Entry; 2) 70 A.D.; 3) Representative ‘you’ – meaning the Church; 4) Christ and the Disciples were wrong.

Problems with the third one is that it is not the plain sense of the passage. Even if it was representative then the disciples would seem to have gone through all Israel or at least by now would have even as Paul suggest that the gospel has been preached in all the world. Israel was was not even a nation for almost 2000 years. Lastly, the simple understanding of the 'Son of Man coming' refers to the Second visible coming in judgment and the setting up of the visible earthly kingdom, as seen in Dan.7.

Problems with the others are also seen above and have been pointed out elsewhere on this thread.

Now I will post the next verse in a new thread. Note that the accumlative effect of verses will add weight to one of the positions above as we start to see Scripture in light of Scripture.

[Romulus0]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

I think this is the problem with Preterism (full-Preterism), the physical resurrection seems to be abundantly obvious in the Scriptures. Paul even mentions the redemptiom of our bodies in Rom.8:23. Christ's physicsl resurrection is the type and firstfruits. This was the disciples hope - glorification.

I see salvation as three things:

1) Spiritual Justification - This comes when a person has exercised faith in the gospel and has been regenerated and born again. This is an innner reality and the Spirit of God now becomes the promise down-payment of the future salvation to come (Eph.1:13-14) This is also a LEGAL STANDING before God - JUSTIFCATION. It does not mean that sin is removed but that before God we have no guilt because of what Christ accomplished on the Cross. The PENALTY of sin has been dealt with. We have not become righteouse but we are DECLARED righteouse by faith - that is a Big Difference.

2) When the Spirit indwells the believer and Christ has paid the penalty for sin we become SANCTIFIED - that is useful for the MASTER. We have been cleansed but we still need to be cleansed as we sin - We have an Advocate as I John says in 1:8-2:2. We still have sin to deal with because we are still in our bodies. This is the war that is in our flesh even though we have the Spirit of God in us. But that Spirit will give life to our mortal bodies in the future (Rom.8:9-11). Therefore, the POWER of sin has been dealt with, as well, until that time.

3) The only thing the disciples were waiting for was the finl part of salvation - GLORIFIATION - the redemption of the body.

For the disciples the future salvation was either the coming of the Lord for victory over their enimies from their persucutions or the resurrection of their body.

Now back to Matt.10:23:

So far there seems to be four basic interpretations: 1) Triumphal Entry; 2) 70 A.D.; 3) Representative ‘you’ – meaning the Church; 4) Christ and the Disciples were wrong.

Problems with the third one is that it is not the plain sense of the passage. Even if it was representative then the disciples would seem to have gone through all Israel or at least by now would have even as Paul suggest that the gospel has been preached in all the world. Israel was was not even a nation for almost 2000 years. Lastly, the simple understanding of the 'Son of Man coming' refers to the Second visible coming in judgment and the setting up of the visible earthly kingdom, as seen in Dan.7.

Problems with the others are also seen above and have been pointed out elsewhere on this thread.

Now I will post the next verse in a new thread. Note that the accumlative effect of verses will add weight to one of the positions above as we start to see Scripture in light of Scripture.

We do agree that Hebrews states that salvation is completed at Christ's appearing but I ask what event completes that salvation? I do agree with points 1 and 2 but it is #3 that I am asking the question.

If the redemption of our physical body is the completion of salvation then sin is completely atoned for only at this event. It cannot be partial, it must be all or nothing. You cannot have partial salvation you must have complete which is what most believe occurs at the 2nd appearing.

Again there is the majority opinion that there still is something that needs to be accomplished at the 2nd appearing to complete salvation which is what you are pointing to in point 3:

The only thing the disciples were waiting for was the finl part of salvation - GLORIFIATION - the redemption of the body.

The glorification of the body is the completion of salvation. If this is the case then I ask the question:

Where does sin reside?

If salvation is the total forgiveness of sins and the physical redemption/resurrection is what completes salvation then we are not atoned for completely until we are physically redeemed. Do you agree?

If this is the case then sin or the atonement of sin resides only in our flesh since that is the last thing to be redeemed. What needs redemption? It is because of sin that man was cast out of the presence of God. It is the redemption from sin that man is put back into the presence of God. If sin is what must be atoned for then our redemption must be either be spiritual or physical, not both.

If the redemption/atonement is complete at our physical resurrection then sin resides in flesh. We cannot get around it. Salvation is either complet or is not. If it isn't and the physical resurrection is what completes it then sin resides in flesh and blood. We cannot escape that conclusion.

What scriptures show what the nature of resurrection is? I will bring them up in the next post.

God Bless.

Originally Posted by Romulus0

We do agree that Hebrews states that salvation is completed at Christ's appearing but I ask what event completes that salvation? I do agree with points 1 and 2 but it is #3 that I am asking the question.

If the redemption of our physical body is the completion of salvation then sin is completely atoned for only at this event. It cannot be partial, it must be all or nothing. You cannot have partial salvation you must have complete which is what most believe occurs at the 2nd appearing.

Again there is the majority opinion that there still is something that needs to be accomplished at the 2nd appearing to complete salvation which is what you are pointing to in point 3:

The only thing the disciples were waiting for was the finl part of salvation - GLORIFIATION - the redemption of the body.

The glorification of the body is the completion of salvation. If this is the case then I ask the question:

Where does sin reside?

If salvation is the total forgiveness of sins and the physical redemption/resurrection is what completes salvation then we are not atoned for completely until we are physically redeemed. Do you agree?

If this is the case then sin or the atonement of sin resides only in our flesh since that is the last thing to be redeemed. What needs redemption? It is because of sin that man was cast out of the presence of God. It is the redemption from sin that man is put back into the presence of God. If sin is what must be atoned for then our redemption must be either be spiritual or physical, not both.

If the redemption/atonement is complete at our physical resurrection then sin resides in flesh. We cannot get around it. Salvation is either complet or is not. If it isn't and the physical resurrection is what completes it then sin resides in flesh and blood. We cannot escape that conclusion.

What scriptures show what the nature of resurrection is? I will bring them up in the next post.

God Bless.

Ok there seems to be some confusion, these things need to be answered - what is the difference between:

1) Propitiation
2) Salvation
3) Justification
4) Glorification
5) Ect.

Salvation is a generlized term it is not technical. It simply means deliverance - hence from your enimies, from sin, from sickness, ect.

Sin has a Moral and Physical aspect to it. This is what is dealt with on the Cross and the Resurrection. The moral is now in that the penalty and power of the moral aspect is dealt with not the presence which is part of the human will. The presence and the physical are still future. Hence the leagl relationship to God now - JUSTIFICATION - and the future relationship - GLORIFICATION.

The effects of sin extend to the Physical Creation. There is nothing intrinicly sinful about the creation or physical things. This is why Christianity is so different from say Gnostisism.

Justification does not take away the effects of sin on the physical body nor the presence of sin because the human will or person is still present. So in that sense salvation is not complete. The moral or spiritual requirement and ability are complete because the work of the Cross and the presence of the Spirit. Nowhere does the Bible teach that salvation is now completed - only justification (the legal standing with GOd), atonement (the Cross and Resurrection), propitiation (The Cross), ect. The other aspects (presence and physical) are only complete in that it will happen because God keeps His promises - this is why it is still a HOPE.

Now, sin does not reside anywhere because sin is an action that proceeds from the human will - it is a matter choice for the Christian - if we yield to the indwelling Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Therefore, the indwelling of the Spirit gives us the power over sin and it moral failures.

Now Propitiation is just the removal of God's wrath toward sin by the Cross of Christ. It satified God's wrath toward sin thereby making a way for God to offer forgiveness for sin if repentance and faith were demonstrated in the Sacrifice - the moral aspect is dealt with now - the physical effects of sin and the presence of sin are yet to come in the renewal of all CREATION.

That is the way I see it.

[sciotamicks]

But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Exactly that....they didn't. Paul was not one of the 12 who preached to the kosmos..the known world..the Roman Empire, and fulfilled His mission as seen in Collosians 1:23.
Dan 7:10 is about the ascension and first resurrection, to be aligned with Rev 20:4.
Judgement was given to them, but they did not judged until later in the chapter, which is prefectly aligned with the later part of Revelaiton 20 where the Beast, False Prophet and Satan were all judged and thrown into the lake of fire. These beings are spiritual, and represent earthly types.
The Beast is the kingdom that Satan has used since Egypt, the False Prophet is Apostate Israel, and of course Satan is Satan. All kingdoms spritually, were defeated and God's is ruling forever (Aionios)

[Romulus0]

Shiloh1;11903144]I think this is the problem with Preterism (full-Preterism), the physical resurrection seems to be abundantly obvious in the Scriptures. Paul even mentions the redemptiom of our bodies in Rom.8:23. Christ's physicsl resurrection is the type and firstfruits. This was the disciples hope - glorification.

I don't believe it to be that clear cut since there are ramifications if the redemption of our bodies is physical.

I see salvation as three things:

Well I only see one but for the sake of discussion let us go further.

1) Spiritual Justification - This comes when a person has exercised faith in the gospel and has been regenerated and born again. This is an innner reality and the Spirit of God now becomes the promise down-payment of the future salvation to come (Eph.1:13-14) This is also a LEGAL STANDING before God - JUSTIFCATION. It does not mean that sin is removed but that before God we have no guilt because of what Christ accomplished on the Cross. The PENALTY of sin has been dealt with. We have not become righteouse but we are DECLARED righteouse by faith - that is a Big Difference.

True we are declared righteous through Christ's work alone but I believe that you are pointing to the fact that we are not righteous in the sense that we still sin, am I correct in that?

In other words you believe that the consequences of sin are taken care of but the act of sinning is still there which I do agree with you but I believe the question is does the act of sinning have any bearing on salvation? The fact that we still do it.

Romans 1

16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[c] just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."[d]


Romans 3[/u][/b]

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Romans 4[/b][/u]

2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a]
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."[b]


I could go on and on but in regard to righteousness and justification this is accomplished through faith. I don't see any other thing that needs to be done in regard to the above "spiritual justification". I believe you agree unless you believe that something is missing?

2) When the Spirit indwells the believer and Christ has paid the penalty for sin we become SANCTIFIED - that is useful for the MASTER. We have been cleansed but we still need to be cleansed as we sin - We have an Advocate as I John says in 1:8-2:2. We still have sin to deal with because we are still in our bodies. This is the war that is in our flesh even though we have the Spirit of God in us. But that Spirit will give life to our mortal bodies in the future (Rom.8:9-11). Therefore, the POWER of sin has been dealt with, as well, until that time.

We constantly sin every day(or as for me every few minutes.....) and we need to repent but does God see our sin anymore?

Hebrews 10

13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds."[b] 17Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more."[c] 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

Through Jesus we are made perfect. We are pure before God because we are washed in His blood. I only see faith in the above scripture. I don't see anything that states that the act of sinning must be done away with. We are made perfect through the blood of Christ.

Hebrews states I may enter the most holy place through the blood of Jesus alone. There is nothing that says anything else is required to enter the presence of God. Christ's blood is sufficient and we can enter now.

3

) The only thing the disciples were waiting for was the finl part of salvation - GLORIFIATION - the redemption of the body.

I agree with you that they were waiting for it but I disagree that they haven't received it yet.

For the disciples the future salvation was either the coming of the Lord for victory over their enimies from their persucutions or the resurrection of their body.

I believe the resurrection of their body as I now you do too. The question is what was the resurrection? Would it have to be be physical or spiritual?

I believe the 3 points you laid out all fall on faith and faith alone for salvation and that salvation itself is not different things that make up salvation but only one point.

That the atonement of sin makes us worthy to be in God's presence and a physical resurrection is not part of salvation. A spiritual resurrection is based on faith. A physical resurrection is based on an event that hasn't happened yet that forces sin as not done away with. I believe the scriptures above state it has been done away with from God's sight forever through christ.

I look forward to the scriptures you will post in another thread.

God Bless.

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by Romulus0

If salvation comes at the second appearing(coming) what exactly completes salvation is where Full-Preterist's such as myself disagree with the common understanding of salvation.

We can both agree that salvation is complete at the second appearing as shown in Hebrews:

Hebrews 9

28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

We can both agree that salvation is the total forgiveness of sins but is not that the case now? Let me explain.

If salvation is complete at the second appearing of Christ then what completes our salvation? The common understanding is that the "resurrection of the dead" is what completes salvation since it happens at the return of Christ. But, must it be physical? I believe you are pointing to Christ's own physical resurrection and we must partake in that as well to achieve salvation. Am I correct in stating this?

I don't really have much of an opinion on Christ's physical resurrection. I don't really believe that a spiritual body contains reformed flesh... but that is just my opinion. So I am open to discussion on that point.

The question I am asking is, is our physical resurrection the completion of our salvation since this is the only event that we partake in at the second appearing. Christ's physical appearance does nothing for our salvation or the forgiveness of sins, the physical renewing of the heavens and the earth
does not do anything for our salvation, and if you believe in the physical rapture, then how does that complete salvation? The second appearing was the completion of salvation according to Hebrews and the only event that completes our salvation must be our physical resurrection in which our old body is done away with and we are given another body. Do we agree on this?

I think you have some good points however I am not a futurist so the rapture and renewing of the heavens and earth are not literal nor physical to me. I state that his appearing completes our salvation by confirming the covenant by completely destroying the animal sacrifices by destruction of the temple. The New is in full effect after that.

Now, if we agree so far, what is salvation? Is not Salvation, sin being taken care of once and for all? Because sin cannot dwell in the presence of God, Christ taking sin upon Himself for us, does not this make us now holy through Him and we can now be in the presence of God(relationship) just as before the fall?

The question I ask if this is salvation then, how does our physical renewal (resurrection) take care of sin? We must face the question

Where does sin reside?

If physical resurrection is necessary and the completion of salvation occurs at that time when Christ returns and the resurrection of the dead/1st resurrection happens at that time, then sin resides in flesh since we are physically resurrected and that completes salvation. It is the nature of resurrection where Full-Preterist's disagree.

If the second appearing/coming has not happened yet then salvation has not come because the resurrection of the dead has not occurred yet.

I agree. It is interesting for futurists to be assured of their salvation when if the second coming has not occurred then they really are just hoping for salvation. It is pretty clear in scripture that the second coming begins the New Covenant.

So I state that I am not a hyper-preterist because I would say that the part of scripture that talks about the downfall of the ones who God uses to crush the Jewish sacrificial system took a little longer than 70AD.. so I am not at all dogmatic about that date but it is clear that the whole of revelation, daniel...etc. are past events.

[Romulus0]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

I
So I state that I am not a hyper-preterist because I would say that the part of scripture that talks about the downfall of the ones who God uses to crush the Jewish sacrificial system took a little longer than 70AD.. so I am not at all dogmatic about that date but it is clear that the whole of revelation, daniel...etc. are past events.

Which scripture are you referring to?

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by Romulus0

Which scripture are you referring to?

Well there is this line in Rev. 20 that gets me.. I haven't yet determined what it means exactly.. which is fine but since you asked.. perhaps you can shed some light on it..

9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

So I assumed that it was the Romans who marched from Rome or rather Caesarea that surrounded the city so the Roman Empire thrived for a time after that I believe and then finally fell in around 400CE although others think it went on until the 15th century..

Anyway there is the verse and my thoughts..

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

Well there is this line in Rev. 20 that gets me.. I haven't yet determined what it means exactly.. which is fine but since you asked.. perhaps you can shed some light on it..

9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

So I assumed that it was the Romans who marched from Rome or rather Caesarea that surrounded the city so the Roman Empire thrived for a time after that I believe and then finally fell in around 400CE although others think it went on until the 15th century..

Anyway there is the verse and my thoughts..

Kat,

The battle of Armageddon / battle of Gog & Magog in Ezekiel is the final judgment upon apostate Israel and the triumph of Jesus Christ & his Church. None other. Many preterist fail in this indentification when applying it to the Romans. Revelation is covenantal, and only a fraction of it has to do with the Romans, and most of it has to do with Old Covenant Israel.

When compared to the events of Ezekiel 38-39, the fate of the Roman armies does not parallel Ezekiel’s prophecies regarding Gog and Magog. In both the book of Revelation and Ezekiel, the armies of Gog and Magog are destroyed and Magog is burned with fire. To put it simply, this does not happen to the Roman Armies that attacked Israel in 67-70 AD.

Rememeber, Israel is Mystery Babylon, the Beast from the Earth, and the Little Horn, all identified with the Ten Horned, Seven Headed Beast.
Revelation is covenantal (MAIN picture is the destroying of old Jerusalem and creating the NEW one) but the earthy elements WERE ALWAYS important, see the role of Assyria, Babylon, Medes, Egypt in the Old Testament, and Rome in the New Testament.