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What are your explanantions? Same thing applies as the #1 Thread.
Matt.16:28 - ‘Assuredly I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till the Son of Man comes in His Kingdom.’
Notice now that it mentions the Kingdom which is one of the aspects of the Dan.7 portrayal of the Son of Man.
I know the standard explanation for the futurist - the Transfiguration. Please explain why?
How do you Preterist see it?
I see it exactly as Jesus said it. Some standing there would not taste death(die) until the Son of Man (Jesus) comes in His Kingdom.
Jesus is telling this to the disciples and several others that not all would die before He returned. All the disciples except John were martyred. Some were alive when he appeared a second time. Jesus didn't lie. If they all died and He didn't come then Jesus was wrong.
1) The transfiguration cannot be the event because how could Jesus appearing with Moses and Elijah have brought about the Kingdom? The scripture stated the Kingdom would come at that time within the lifetime of some who were standing there. There is nothing in the transfiguration that accomplishes the scriptures about the Kingdom. It was only a sign.
2) The transfiguration was only several days later. Not one of the disciples had died yet.
The scripture I believe in clear language that Jesus said some standing there would not die until he returned in His Kingdom. I believe He did within the lifetime of those who heard it.
God Bless
12-05-2009, 04:08 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romulus0
I see it exactly as Jesus said it. Some standing there would not taste death(die) until the Son of Man (Jesus) comes in His Kingdom.
Jesus is telling this to the disciples and several others that not all would die before He returned. All the disciples except John were martyred. Some were alive when he appeared a second time. Jesus didn't lie. If they all died and He didn't come then Jesus was wrong.
1) The transfiguration cannot be the event because how could Jesus appearing with Moses and Elijah have brought about the Kingdom? The scripture stated the Kingdom would come at that time within the lifetime of some who were standing there. There is nothing in the transfiguration that accomplishes the scriptures about the Kingdom. It was only a sign.
2) The transfiguration was only several days later. Not one of the disciples had died yet.
The scripture I believe in clear language that Jesus said some standing there would not die until he returned in His Kingdom. I believe He did within the lifetime of those who heard it.
God Bless
This would mean that the this Kingdom reference is spiritual and that would mean that the Dan7 references were spiritual. What about the physical return of Christ - like Acts 1:9-11. It would seem the disciples expected Jesus to come again physcially and judge all nations and rule forever. All nations certainly do not serve him and obey him as Dan.7 says.
The only way I see it is if Jesus is not talking about Dan.7 (despite the Son of Man reference) but about the spiritual kingdom referred to in the parables - the kingdom within - maybe Pentecost or when Christ breathed on them and commanded thenm to go and preach the kingdom because it was at hand. But that would still leave an end times physical second coming.
Where are all the futurists? Let us hear some explanations.
Remember Peter was told that he would die, but to not take notice of what John of Zebedee was to experience, as he would see that coming, that kingdom arrive.
John 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [thee] whither thou wouldest not.
John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me.
John 21 23: Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee?
He was one, but the record shows that Phillip, Bartholomew, John, and possibly Thomas, Jude and Simon all survived past 70 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem. Most, if not all of them included in surviving died martyrs except John outside of Israel. None of them finished their work in Israel before its judgement arrived as per your first thread regarding Matt 10:23.
Simon was rumored to be a part of the Zealot revolt after the fall of Jerusalem, but that is just a rumor, and I really don't believe it.
Well ... I will answer why i believe that it is in reference to Christs transfiguration. The reason is because that is when Christ truly became victorious over sin and death in his own life, and only a short while after he was seen coming into Jerusalem on palm Sunday(that is to say during the feast of tabernacles) as king riding an ass as was prophesied in the old testament. Had he not put off his glory at that time(that is to say if he had not put off the glory of his transfigured body so that he might lay down his life for others and thereby have victory over sin and death for the entire creation), he would never have died himself. So he had completely earned his place in the throne of God at that time. Not to mention in context the transfiguration is seen to have happened only two verses after he had told the apostles that they would see him come into the glory of his Kingdom(reign) ... Remember there was no punctuation or division of chapter and verse in the original Greek.
Yes, in verse 27, it appears that Christ is making reference to his second coming at the judgment and i would not disagree with this interpretation of that verse, but when you look at the verse just before that(Mat 16:26) you see Christ making reference to his own death when he speaks gaining the world but by losing his own soul(dying), and then of what he must be willing to do to regain his own soul, which i believe would be the fact that he was willing to die for everyone else. That is the sacrifice i see that Christ made which accounted him worthy of not only never dying, but of being resurrected from death by virtue of his own merit in that he was willing to put off his own deserved immortality to die for the world providing and committing the ultimate sacrifice.
That is how i understand it at least ...
I wanted to say i do find it interesting that i am the only person who is providing any argument for the futurist perspective within these threads. When i know for a fact that i am not the only one here on this forum who believes at least partially in future fulfillment of prophecy ... Has the cat Gotten hold of everyone else's tongue in regard these things? Oh well ... That is my two cents.
God bless ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 12-05-2009 at 04:52 PM..
This would mean that the this Kingdom reference is spiritual and that would mean that the Dan7 references were spiritual. What about the physical return of Christ - like Acts 1:9-11. It would seem the disciples expected Jesus to come again physcially and judge all nations and rule forever. All nations certainly do not serve him and obey him as Dan.7 says.
The only way I see it is if Jesus is not talking about Dan.7 (despite the Son of Man reference) but about the spiritual kingdom referred to in the parables - the kingdom within - maybe Pentecost or when Christ breathed on them and commanded thenm to go and preach the kingdom because it was at hand. But that would still leave an end times physical second coming.
Where are all the futurists? Let us hear some explanations.
I believe you mean these verses:
Daniel 7
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
First off it states that the Son of Man (Jesus) would come on the clouds of heaven but the very next verse it states He (Jesus) would approach the Ancient of Days.
Wait a second that coming is not to earth but to God. Simple grammer shows that the direction Jesus was going was not to us but to God our Father. This fits in nicely with Hebrews:
Hebrews 9
24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
See the direction. This was at the ascension. Jesus made the atonement for our sins in heaven itself and it was accepted by God our Father. Our Father then gave Christ a Kingdom that would never end because Christ had atoned for our sin and taken it back from Satan whom Adam had given it to because of sin.
The Kingdom of God was never physical. It goes against the clear scripture from Christ Himself.
Luke 17
20Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within[b] you."
The Kingdom cannot be physical because scripture states you cannot say the kingdom of God is there or there because it cannot be seen. The Kingdom is within those that have received Christ through faith. You are the Kingdom of God.
Daniel 7
26 " 'But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.'
Since the Kingdom is not physical, it is utterly irrelevant that we do not see a physical kingdom because it was given to Christ. All rulers must obey Him or be destroyed. Do we see it in history? Of course! Does Nazi Germany or Communist Russia exist today? Why don't they? Because Christ is on the throne and reigning.
God Bless.
Last edited by Romulus0; 12-05-2009 at 04:46 PM..
Reason: Grammer
What are your explanantions? Same thing applies as the #1 Thread.
Matt.16:28 - ‘Assuredly I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till the Son of Man comes in His Kingdom.’
Notice now that it mentions the Kingdom which is one of the aspects of the Dan.7 portrayal of the Son of Man.
I know the standard explanation for the futurist - the Transfiguration. Please explain why?
How do you Preterist see it?
I see that if those standing there died before they saw the son of Man coming in his Kingdom... (see also verse 27) then Jesus is made out to be a liar. Verse 27 shows that it is the "last days" event that Jesus refers to not his transfiguration. He does not come in his father's glory with angels and reward people at his transfiguration...
So I would think that Jesus knew what he was talking about and that some that stood there that day did see him return before they died.
12-05-2009, 05:39 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romulus0
I believe you mean these verses:
Daniel 7
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
First off it states that the Son of Man (Jesus) would come on the clouds of heaven but the very next verse it states He (Jesus) would approach the Ancient of Days.
Wait a second that coming is not to earth but to God. Simple grammer shows that the direction Jesus was going was not to us but to God our Father. This fits in nicely with Hebrews:
Hebrews 9
24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
See the direction. This was at the ascension. Jesus made the atonement for our sins in heaven itself and it was accepted by God our Father. Our Father then gave Christ a Kingdom that would never end because Christ had atoned for our sin and taken it back from Satan whom Adam had given it to because of sin.
The Kingdom of God was never physical. It goes against the clear scripture from Christ Himself.
Luke 17
20Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."
The Kingdom cannot be physical because scripture states you cannot say the kingdom of God is there or there because it cannot be seen. The Kingdom is within those that have received Christ through faith. You are the Kingdom of God.
[b]Daniel 7
26 " 'But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.'
Since the Kingdom is not physical, it is utterly irrelevant that we do not see a physical kingdom because it was given to Christ. All rulers must obey Him or be destroyed. Do we see it in history? Of course! Does Nazi Germany or Communist Russia exist today? Why don't they? Because Christ is on the throne and reigning.
God Bless.
Yes, I have heard this as well, my only problem (and I will double check this) is that The 'approaching' in Hebrew is not speaking of going from earth to heaven - and ascension - but one that suggest He was already in Heaven and brought near to the Ancient of Days just prior to the Second coming in judgment. It is court language and hence the reference to books, courts, thrones, and judgment. It is also Divine Council language where God gathers his council before a certain administrative act. The context of Dan.7 is His return in glory not his ascension in glory.
Also, katjonjj is right when the ascension does not seem to fit verse 27 with angels and reward. This is clearly second coming language. It is interesting that some translations seperate verse 27 and verse 28. They put verse 28 with the following context about the transfiguration. The Greek does not have any such seperation except the clear break in the narrative with the six days seperating Christ teaching. This is very misleading.
I see that if those standing there died before they saw the son of Man coming in his Kingdom... (see also verse 27) then Jesus is made out to be a liar. Verse 27 shows that it is the "last days" event that Jesus refers to not his transfiguration. He does not come in his father's glory with angels and reward people at his transfiguration...
So I would think that Jesus knew what he was talking about and that some that stood there that day did see him return before they died.
That is only if you interpret what he actually said as being his returning during his second coming, although it has been shown that his words could be interpreted as referring to his transfiguration and entering into Jerusalem as King.
In the same regard, if there is never a time when all kindreds of all nations worship God and confess Christ as savior on the earth then God is seen to be a liar as well ...
Yes, I have heard this as well, my only problem (and I will double check this) is that The 'approaching' in Hebrew is not speaking of going from earth to heaven - and ascension - but one that suggest He was already in Heaven and brought near to the Ancient of Days just prior to the Second coming in judgment. It is court language and hence the reference to books, courts, thrones, and judgment. It is also Divine Council language where God gathers his council before a certain administrative act. The context of Dan.7 is His return in glory not his ascension in glory.
Also, katjonjj is right when the ascension does not seem to fit verse 27 with angels and reward. This is clearly second coming language. It is interesting that some translations seperate verse 27 and verse 28. They put verse 28 with the following context about the transfiguration. The Greek does not have any such seperation except the clear break in the narrative with the six days seperating Christ teaching. This is very misleading.
Strong's has the following for "approached" as used in Daniel 7:13
I saw 1934 2370 in the night 3916 visions 2376, and, behold 718, [one] like the Son 1247 of man 606 came 858 with 5974 the clouds 6050 of heaven 8065, and came 4291 to 5705 the Ancient 6268 of days 3118, and they brought him near 7127 before 6925 him.
Strong H858 "came"
אֲתָה
athah (Aramaic)
1) to come, arrive
a) (P'al) to come
b) (Aphel) to bring
c) (Hophal) to be brought
Strong H4291 "came"
מְטָא
1) to reach, come upon, attain
a) (P'al)
1) to reach, come to
2) to reach, extend
3) to come upon
Daniel 7
The translations of the word "came" in the scripture point to a different direction in my opinion which is heaven bound not earth bound. Do you see it differently?
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