Calling all Preterist and Futurist #2 (Matt.16:28) (priest, disciple, Jesus Christ, Bible)

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

You're blind if you cannot see that Mar 8:34-9:1 Is the same dialogue as Mat 16:24-28 ... I will not argue the point with you ... I'm tired of arguing with you.

So what if it's the same dialogue. I have shown you that Matt 15 is the feeding and Chirst left at the end of the chapter.

Matt 16 is the dialogue in question. Mark 8 is the feeding of the multitude, like that of Matt 15, and at the end of 15 He leaves the scene...so therefore in Matt 16, as I pointed out, He is directly talking to the disciples only, as in Mark 8 as well. Divide it rightly. You are incorrect. Study harder. You're tired of arguing with me because I keep pointing out where you err, and you don't like that. Deal with it. Study harder.

Ironmaw - EXACTLY!

This is even more so when we look at the parables regarding the Kingdom in Matt.13 - 'The kingdom of heaven is like...'

It is obvious that it grows from small to large and even encompasses false brethren which will later be seperated by the Lord and His angels.

But the angels and rewards seem to be the latter part of the process.

Anyway, definately much prayer is needed.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Ironmaw,

What youare claiming is something I struglled with for a long time, called dual fulfillment and perpetual fulfillments. Something that was revealed to me that just cannot happen. The scripture is prophetic in this regard, and this coming, Parousia, is a one time event, as Paul, Peter, John and Jesus as well as others Old and New Testament, testified to happen at one single moment and event. Unfortunately, this claim is noble, and definitely endearing, but is not aligned with scripture, and can only be deduced as false. Something I feel, you will soon enough, realize.

Take some time, pray about it.

I have been praying about it for a long time and this is what I believe the spirit has been leading me to understand. Thanks for the thought though ... I am still praying and still studying, who knows what may come of it in the end. I hope you are still praying and studying as well. A mind is like a parachute, it works best when it is open ...

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

So what if it's the same dialogue. I have shown you that Matt 15 is the feeding and Chirst left at the end of the chapter.

Matt 16 is the dialogue in question. Mark 8 is the feeding of the multitude, like that of Matt 15, and at the end of 15 He leaves the scene...so therefore in Matt 16, as I pointed out, He is directly talking to the disciples only, as in Mark 8 as well. Divide it rightly. You are incorrect. Study harder. You're tired of arguing with me because I keep pointing out where you err, and you don't like that. Deal with it. Study harder.

And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

This is after Peter had said he was the messiah ... He "called the people unto him with his disciples also", and "said unto them" ...

Unto who? Unto the people he had called unto him and the disciples also with them.

Nevertheless this is peripheral and does not necessarily bare on the subject at hand. So what is the point of arguing about it. We will agree to disagree as we always do ...

[sciotamicks]

Ironmaw....Matt 15 is the feeding of the multitude. It ends with Jesus leaving on a ship. Then we can only deduce that Matt 16 is a different set and place entirely of that feeding. Mark 8 incoporates these two sets together, leaving out and adding some things that Matthew did not have. This is why we must harmonize and divide the time texts rightly. This is why, Matthew 16:28, as noted in verse 24, Jesus is speaking directly to His disciples only, not inclusive of the multitude at all. So therefore, we cannot say that Matt 16:28 is speaking to more than the disciples as the text tells us. Those that would not taste death only deals with the disciples solely.

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

Ironmaw - EXACTLY!

This is even more so when we look at the parables regarding the Kingdom in Matt.13 - 'The kingdom of heaven is like...'

It is obvious that it grows from small to large and even encompasses false brethren which will later be seperated by the Lord and His angels.

What the mustard seed analogy is likened to that of the Great commision. We, as Christians, plant the seed, and God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are the one that regenerate that seed into something or not.

The mustard seed analogy is not prophetic, but a duty alone. It is not something that is perpetual or dual fulifling. The kingdom already came, and it is up to Christ whether or not that seed blossoms into something more than what already is in place.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Ironmaw....Matt 15 is the feeding of the multitude. It ends with Jesus leaving on a ship. Then we can only deduce that Matt 16 is a different set and place entirely of that feeding. Mark 8 incoporates these two sets together, leaving out and adding some things that Matthew did not have. This is why we must harmonize and divide the time texts rightly. This is why, Matthew 16:28, as noted in verse 24, Jesus is speaking directly to His disciples only, not inclusive of the multitude at all. So therefore, we cannot say that Matt 16:28 is speaking to more than the disciples as the text tells us. Those that would not taste death only deals with the disciples solely.

Lets look at mark chapter 8 and the beginning of 9 shall we?


Mark chapter 8

Feeding of the multitude ...
1In those days the multitude being very great, and not having what they may eat, Jesus having called near his disciples, saith to them, 2`I have compassion upon the multitude, because now three days they do continue with me, and they have not what they may eat;
3and if I shall let them away fasting to their home, they will faint in the way, for certain of them are come from far.'
4And his disciples answered him, `Whence shall any one be able these here to feed with bread in a wilderness?'
5And he was questioning them, `How many loaves have ye?' and they said, `Seven.'
6And he commanded the multitude to sit down upon the ground, and having taken the seven loaves, having given thanks, he brake, and was giving to his disciples that they may set before [them]; and they did set before the multitude.
7And they had a few small fishes, and having blessed, he said to set them also before [them];
8and they did eat and were filled, and they took up that which was over of broken pieces -- seven baskets;
9and those eating were about four thousand. And he let them away,



Entering the boat and traveling to Dalmanutha and warning of the leavenof the pharisees
10and immediately having entered into the boat with his disciples, he came to the parts of Dalmanutha,
11and the Pharisees came forth, and began to dispute with him, seeking from him a sign from the heaven, tempting him;
12and having sighed deeply in his spirit, he saith, `Why doth this generation seek after a sign? Verily I say to you, no sign shall be given to this generation.'
13And having left them, having entered again into the boat, he went away to the other side;
14and they forgot to take loaves, and except one loaf they had nothing with them in the boat,
15and he was charging them, saying, `Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod,'
16and they were reasoning with one another, saying -- `Because we have no loaves.'
17And Jesus having known, saith to them, `Why do ye reason, because ye have no loaves? do ye not yet perceive, nor understand, yet have ye your heart hardened?
18Having eyes, do ye not see? and having ears, do ye not hear? and do ye not remember?
19When the five loaves I did brake to the five thousand, how many hand-baskets full of broken pieces took ye up?' they say to him, `Twelve.'
20`And when the seven to the four thousand, how many hand-baskets full of broken pieces took ye up?' and they said, `Seven.'
21And he said to them, `How do ye not understand?'



Coming into Bethsaida, healing of the blind man and anouncing Christ is messiah
22And he cometh to Bethsaida, and they bring to him one blind, and call upon him that he may touch him,
23and having taken the hand of the blind man, he led him forth without the village, and having spit on his eyes, having put [his] hands on him, he was questioning him if he doth behold anything:
24and he, having looked up, said, `I behold men, as I see trees, walking.'
25Afterwards again he put [his] hands on his eyes, and made him look up, and he was restored, and discerned all things clearly,
26and he sent him away to his house, saying, `Neither to the village mayest thou go, nor tell [it] to any in the village.'
27And Jesus went forth, and his disciples, to the villages of Cesarea Philippi, and in the way he was questioning his disciples, saying to them, `Who do men say me to be?'
28And they answered, `John the Baptist, and others Elijah, but others one of the prophets.'
29And he saith to them, `And ye -- who do ye say me to be?' and Peter answering saith to him, `Thou art the Christ.'
30And he strictly charged them that they may tell no one about it,



Foretelling his suffering and death and the rebuke of Peter
31and began to teach them, that it behoveth the Son of Man to suffer many things, and to be rejected by the elders, and chief priests, and scribes, and to be killed, and after three days to rise again;
32and openly he was speaking the word. And Peter having taken him aside, began to rebuke him,
33and he, having turned, and having looked on his disciples, rebuked Peter, saying, `Get behind me, Adversary, because thou dost not mind the things of God, but the things of men.'


Calling to himself the multitude and the disciples with them to foretell of his comining power and how some should see it before they died ...
34And having called near the multitude, with his disciples, he said to them, `Whoever doth will to come after me -- let him disown himself, and take up his cross, and follow me;
35for whoever may will to save his life shall lose it; and whoever may lose his life for my sake and for the good news' sake, he shall save it;
36for what shall it profit a man, if he may gain the whole world, and forfeit his life?
37Or what shall a man give as an exchange for his life?
38for whoever may be ashamed of me, and of my words, in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man also shall be ashamed of him, when he may come in the glory of his Father, with the holy messengers.'


Mark Chapter 9:1-8

1And he said to them, `Verily I say to you, That there are certain of those standing here, who may not taste of death till they see the reign of God having come in power.'

The Transfiguration
2And after six days doth Jesus take Peter, and James, and John, and bringeth them up to a high mount by themselves, alone, and he was transfigured before them,
3and his garments became glittering, white exceedingly, as snow, so as a fuller upon the earth is not able to whiten [them].
4And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus.
5And Peter answering saith to Jesus, `Rabbi, it is good to us to be here; and we may make three booths, for thee one, and for Moses one, and for Elijah one:'
6for he was not knowing what he might say, for they were greatly afraid.
7And there came a cloud overshadowing them, and there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is My Son -- the Beloved, hear ye him;'
8and suddenly, having looked around, they saw no one any more, but Jesus only with themselves.



So we can see that the feeding of the multitude in Mark at the beginning of Chapter 8 is separated by many things from when Christ called the multitude to himself with the disciples also in verse 34 ... How ever you get that Mark 8:34 is referring to the feeding of the multitude is far beyond what i understand to be contextual, as mark had already written about the feeding of the multitude and sending them away much earlier in the chapter ... The fact is you are adding to scripture when you say that Matthew wrote that he was speaking to the disciples "ONLY" ... It is true Matthew does not mention the multitude and that he writes that Christ said to the disciples ... but he does not use the word only and simply omits the multitude which Mark writes about. This doesn't mean they were not there, it only means that Matthew did not write anything about them. So we should see that Mark is adding more information to Matthews telling, and not that Matthew is necessarily taking away from Marks telling.


So believe what ever you want, and i will let the bible speak for itself and all others decide who they agree with on this issue ...

[sciotamicks]

Ironmaw,

I don't think you understand what I ma conveying to you. Earlier in this thread you said that when Jesus spoke to His disciples in referrence to Matt 16:28, He was not only speaking to His disciples, but He was speaking to them and the multitude as well. I say you are wrong. Verse 24 of Matthew 16 tells you that. That is all. That was my point. Maybe it got lost somewhere, and you misunderstood my stance, or per say, the scripture's stance.

Matt 15 ends after the feeding of the multitude and Jesus goes away onto a ship in verse 39

And he sent away the multitude, and took ship, and came into the coasts of Magdala

Matt 16 begins with:

The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.

Verse 24 notes:

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

then follows in 28 directed only to His disciples:

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 8 is the feeding of the multitude:

And he commanded the people to sit down on the ground: and he took the seven loaves, and gave thanks, and brake, and gave to his disciples to set before [them]; and they did set [them] before the people.

Verse 10 is where Christ goes away, algning it with the end of chapter 15:

And straightway he entered into a ship with his disciples, and came into the parts of Dalmanutha

Verse 11 alignsit with the beginning of Matt 16:1:

And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.

This is a different place and time of that of the multitude.

Mark 8 incorporates, as you have noted as well, different events all in one chapter, that Matthew separates in two different discourses.

My point is that the the tasting of death has nothing to do with the transfiguration, or that it has nothing to do with the multitude as you said earlier in the thread here:

I also notice that when Christ said that some will not taste of death, he is not only speaking to the disciples but to the multitude as well ...

You are wrong above. He is only speaking to the disciples, and none of them died six days later, so the point that some of them would not taste death is moot in regards to your claim that the kingdom coming was six days later at the transfiguration, where all of them were still alive. I have seen this arguement before countless times, and it is in error.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Ironmaw,

I don't think you understand what I ma conveying to you. Earlier in this thread you said that when Jesus spoke to His disciples in referrence to Matt 16:28, He was not only speaking to His disciples, but He was speaking to them and the multitude as well. I say you are wrong. Verse 24 of Matthew 16 tells you that. That is all. That was my point. Maybe it got lost somewhere, and you misunderstood my stance, or per say, the scripture's stance.

Matt 15 ends after the feeding of the multitude and Jesus goes away onto a ship in verse 39

And he sent away the multitude, and took ship, and came into the coasts of Magdala

Matt 16 begins with:

The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.

Verse 24 notes:

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

then follows in 28 directed only to His disciples:

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 8 is the feeding of the multitude:

And he commanded the people to sit down on the ground: and he took the seven loaves, and gave thanks, and brake, and gave to his disciples to set before [them]; and they did set [them] before the people.

Verse 10 is where Christ goes away, algning it with the end of chapter 15:

And straightway he entered into a ship with his disciples, and came into the parts of Dalmanutha

Verse 11 alignsit with the beginning of Matt 16:1:

And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.

This is a different place and time of that of the multitude.

Mark 8 incorporates, as you have noted as well, different events all in one chapter, that Matthew separates in two different discourses.

My point is that the the tasting of death has nothing to do with the transfiguration, or that it has nothing to do with the multitude as you said earlier in the thread here:



You are wrong above. He is only speaking to the disciples, and none of them died six days later, so the point that some of them would not taste death is moot in regards to your claim that the kingdom coming was six days later at the transfiguration, where all of them were still alive. I have seen this arguement before countless times, and it is in error.

I know what you think. I disagree ... I believe the bible proves in Mark that there were people with Christ and his disciples when he said to them that some would not taste of death before they witnessed the the coming of Christ in power. I believe that he was referring to the transfiguration, and i believe that i have proven it as well as can be proven through exegesis. Especially considering the fact the Peter referred to the transfiguration as the the power of the coming of the lord Jesus Christ in 2Pe 1:16 ... Language that is very close to the language Christ used in both
Mar 9:1 and in Mat 16:28 ...


You said ...

Mark 8 incorporates, as you have noted as well, different events all in one chapter, that Matthew separates in two different discourses.

The fact is neither Mark nor Matthew nor any of the writers of either the old or new testament separated their writings by verses or paragraphs or chapters or even used punctuation. All of that was done by translators ...

I disagree with you on all these things as i do on may other issues. I know you think that i'm in error, just like i think you are in error. That is okay ... I believe that the various prophetic hermeneutics can and should be understood in light of one another and not separately. I believe that every form of Prophetic hermeneutic has some truth in it that the others do not. And i am working on reconciling them with each other in a attempt to synthesize a full understanding of prophecy instead of putting all my eggs in the basket of only one. Its is okay with me if you disagree, you are not the only one who does, so do hyper futurists, and so do most traditional orthodox fundamentalists in general. That actually makes me think im getting closer to the truth, and not further away.

I have been studying the bible, in the beginning under the tutelage of My father who was ordained and went to seminary for many years, since i was 6 years old, that is to say for nearly thirty years ... I would dare say i have been studying the bible for longer than you have, and that i have studied more peripheral materials and biblical commentaries as well ... That doesn't prove that i am right, but i am confident in my efforts and in the spirit which i believe to have been leading this whole time ...

So if you disagree that is fine, but please refrain from speaking down to me as if you were some authority i should respect and subscribe to and not just another person on a forum who believes that they have all the answers and that everyone who disagrees with them is always wrong ... Exchanging ideas and debating differences is one thing, but i tire of arguing with people. I know i have been guilty of allowing myself to become frustrated and becoming personal to some extent and i am trying my best not to allow myself to come down to that level of miscommunication again, as nothing is accomplished by it ...

God bless and shalom ...

[Meerkat2]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

So what if it's the same dialogue. I have shown you that Matt 15 is the feeding and Chirst left at the end of the chapter.

Matt 16 is the dialogue in question. Mark 8 is the feeding of the multitude, like that of Matt 15, and at the end of 15 He leaves the scene...so therefore in Matt 16, as I pointed out, He is directly talking to the disciples only, as in Mark 8 as well. Divide it rightly. You are incorrect. Study harder. You're tired of arguing with me because I keep pointing out where you err, and you don't like that. Deal with it. Study harder.

sciotamicks,

I agree with Ironmaw that matthew and mark are talking about the same sequence of events - in the original there were no chapter breaks, verse 1 of mark 9 relates to the end of the mark 8 dialogue.

verse 2 of mark 9 takes place 6 days later - the same as in Matthew 17 verse 1 the transfigeration is described taking place 6 days after both.

If you read both versions of the feeding the multitude in matt and mark, he leaves the scene in both of the accounts - in matt it says he spoke to his disciples and in mark it says he spoke to the people and his disciples - they both relate to the same event and the sequence of events in both versions are almost identical - The difference I see is that in the matthew version there is inserted a "thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church" and in Mark the healing of the blind man is inserted.