The Blessed Hope of the Believers (abomination, woman, Messiah, believe)
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[SIZE=3]This is just one perfect example of how the pre-tribulation camp takes the scripture completely out of context. This is a common practice of theirs as they have done with verse 36. To understand the meaning of verse 36 we must look at it from a perspective of how it relates to the surrounding verses in the chapter or passage to arrive at its meaning. They take it as a bunny, pull it out of a hat or chapter, and misconstrue its meaning by allowing it to stand alone. They do not show the remainder of the verses, nor do they show other identical references as Mathew 24, Mark 13, Rev. 19, 20, I Thes, and II Thes. In order to arrive at their misconception, they must display the verse to you by itself, number one. Secondly, they must take its meaning way out of context and tell you what they think it means. By no means does it mean what they say it does. Christ is telling us to watch all along this chapter as he does in the other Gospels and in I, and II Thes, etc. If we are out of here as they suggest and could have been taken any time after the ascension, what is there to watch for? How can we watch for these signs if we are gone? It is impossible to see something without being present to see it.[/SIZE]
7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? 8And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. 9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. 10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19In your patience possess ye your souls. 20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 29And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 31So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 32Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Take note, this is very important, and you will see it very clearly later, we are to watch for the signs of the sun and moon and heavens changing to give us a final indication of when Christ is coming. This is clear in this chapter and even clearer in others. These are the last visible signs we can see. So as I said before, they take this one verse 36, out of context by misconstruing its meaning and omitting its meaning within the surrounding verses or by omitting the chapter itself or other like chapters in other books.
They confuse the snare as being the troubles on the earth, but it is not. The snare clearly, if you take this verse in context is the return of Christ that comes unawares to the unbelieving, those that cannot watch, as they do not have the spiritual eyes to see the signs. The are those drunken in the night or during the dark time on earth. Their hearts are overcharged with surfeiting and they are caught with the cares of the world. This is the snare they are trapped in. They can not see; We do. We just went on a rabbit trail here but I wanted to cover this one verse briefly, and we will demonstrate this teaching presented in much more detail later. We all know what happens to the unrighteous and unbelieving when Jesus comes; they will not be able to stand before the son of man; we will. This is the snare in a nut shell; it has nothing to do with a false pre-tribulation rapture or escaping the troubles Satan brings to the earth. The ultimate result in the snare will be the lake of fire for the ungodly or unbelieving. As we go on in detail, its obviousness will appear very clearly. I was just motivated to briefly cover this one verse to demonstrate how they misconstrue the meanings of single verses, take them way out of context to arrive at some fantasy they believe, the pre-tribulation rapture. I hope this has become somewhat clear to you that this verse does not mean what they say it does. If you see this error, that is good. If not perhaps Mathew 24 or Mark 13 will make it more clear for you as they speak of the same events with much more detail.
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. We can present this one small verse from Mathew 24 and say it means what it says. The end is when Christ arrives, after the darkening of the sun and moon. All the verses in Mathew 24 surrounding it support that statement I just made. Jesus tells us only those that endure until the end will be saved, or in actuality those that endure to the end are the ones that are really saved. The unsaved will not be able to endure, and will receive the Mark. They have not the spiritual eyes to see the signs of the times.
The Church is in Heaven during the Tribulation. You can see that clearly in Rev. 19. The Church returns with Christ at the second advent of Christ. The Bema Seat judgment takes place in Heaven while the Tribulation is taking place on earth. The rapture is pre-Tribulational. Go to my Thread on the Pre-Tribulational Rapture. Also, go to my thread on dispensations. Though I get the feeling it won't do any good.
The Church is in Heaven during the Tribulation. You can see that clearly in Rev. 19. The Church returns with Christ at the second advent of Christ. The Bema Seat judgment takes place in Heaven while the Tribulation is taking place on earth. The rapture is pre-Tribulational. Go to my Thread on the Pre-Tribulational Rapture. Also, go to my thread on dispensations. Though I get the feeling it won't do any good.
Gideon said, Really, I completely disagree with that claim you just made. Could you kindly elaborate on that for us and demonstrate the claim you have just made. Revelation in its entirety demonstrates, depicts, and proves the opposite of what you have just stated to be true, as does Revelation 19 when taken in context. I understand how one can take it out of context, though. We will eventually get to Revelation 19 also. But if you would like to make a statement of your proof, I am prepared to debunk that with scripture briefly now in order to demonstrate, there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture in scripture...I understand, the armies returning with Christ are part of the body, but it is not a resurrected, translated body, that was raptured seven years earlier as you have stated, in a pretribulational rapture. Be prepared, as scripture will debunk this false claim you are making. Please, elaborate for us and give your proof. BTW, proving this statement you have made is very simple; one must have the eyes to see and the ears to hear. If one can not see, nor hear they will not see nor hear the plain truth, right before their eyes and ears, incredible.
By the way, I am not into reading long drawn out misconceptions about the rapture, written by others whom are not here to contend for the faith. My belief and logic in this matter is if you know what you have claimed and just stated to be true, then you should be able to explain why you believe that by using scripture and your dissertation; hence, you should be able to prove it on your own, in your words... I prefer to explain matters in my own words; it seems to be more affective and realistic this way, IMHO. I prefer not to use an escapist mentality by allowing some author of a convoluted and twisted writing to explain things for me. As I stated before, I have studies this for 32 years and know there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture. If you could kindly present your proof, perhaps this matter would be more convincing.
By the way, the Bema seat does not take place in heaven at all, nor does it take place seven year before the end or the last day, hint. It takes place on the last day, as recorded in scripture. Could you present that proof also for us and demonstrate to us where you see the Bema Seat or rewards of the saints teking place in heaven seven years earlier. You have placed yourself in a precarious position, making such false statements and claims, IMHO.
Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-07-2009 at 08:09 PM..
Gideon said, Really, I completely disagree with that claim you just made. Could you kindly elaborate on that for us and demonstrate the claim you have just made. Revelation in its entirety demonstrates, depicts, and proves the opposite of what you have just stated to be true, as does Revelation 19 when taken in context. I understand how one can take it out of context, though. We will eventually get to Revelation 19 also. But if you would like to make a statement of your proof, I am prepared to debunk that with scripture briefly now in order to demonstrate, there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture in scripture...I understand, the armies returning with Christ are part of the body, but it is not a resurrected, translated body, that was raptured seven years earlier as you have stated, in a pretribulational rapture. Be prepared, as scripture will debunk this false claim you are making. Please, elaborate for us and give your proof. BTW, proving this statement you have made is very simple; one must have the eyes to see and the ears to hear. If one can not see, nor hear they will not see nor hear the plain truth, right before their eyes and ears, incredible.
By the way, I am not into reading long drawn out misconceptions about the rapture, written by others whom are not here to contend for the faith. My belief and logic in this matter is if you know what you have claimed and just stated to be true, then you should be able to explain why you believe that by using scripture and your dissertation; hence, you should be able to prove it on your own, in your words... I prefer to explain matters in my own words; it seems to be more affective and realistic this way, IMHO. I prefer not to use an escapist mentality by allowing some author of a convoluted and twisted writing to explain things for me. As I stated before, I have studies this for 32 years and know there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture. If you could kindly present your proof, perhaps this matter would be more convincing.
By the way, the Bema seat does not take place in heaven at all, nor does it take place seven year before the end or the last day, hint. It takes place on the last day, as recorded in scripture. Could you present that proof also for us and demonstrate to us where you see the Bema Seat or rewards of the saints teking place in heaven seven years earlier. You have placed yourself in a precarious position, making such false statements and claims, IMHO.
Quite simple actually. Rev19:7-10 shows the church-bride, in heaven, and verses 11 and following show the return of the Lord. Read the link I provided for your proof. And read my posts on the rapture and on dispensations. Anyone with even a thimbleful of doctrine should have enough sense to understand the pre-tribulational nature of the rapture. Study the material at this link, and learn the difference between the rapture of the church and the second advent of Christ.
As far as the day of the Lord, that includes the rapture, the last half of the Tribulation, the Second Advent, the Millennium, the time period for destroying the heavens and earth-2 Peter 3:10-13, and the time period for creating the new heavens and earth, totaling 1007 years.
The day of the Lord is also used for any portion of this period, the context dictating how long. Isa.2:12, 13:7; Joel 1:15, 2:1; Zech 14:1; Matthew 24:32-25:13; 1Thess 5:1-8; 2 Peter 3:8,10-13.
In contrast, the church is instructed to wait and look for His return for her, 1 Thess. 1:9-10, Tit. 2:13; Heb 9:28.
The rapture is shown in I Thess. 4:13-17; 1 Cor. 15:51-53; Phil 3:21; Titus 2:13.
In John 14:1-3 Christ speaks of coming back again (to the clouds) to receive the Church and take her back to the place He has prepared for her, ''In My Fathers house.'' This is the rapture or resurrection of the Church. In contrast, when Christ returns at the second Advent, He is on the earth, and not going back to heaven. Therefore, John 14:1-3 takes place before the second Advent.
The following is from the New Scofield reference Edition of the Bible. Pages 1146, 1233.
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John 14:3) As a part of this discourse, which has been of comfort to the Church throughout the centuries, the Lord gives a promise of His personal return for His own people, a doctrine that is expanded by the Apostle Paul in 1 Th. 4:13-18. This aspect of Christ's return is to be distinquished from His coming to the earth to establish His kingdom (Rev. 19:11-16)
1 Cor. 1:8) The expression ''the day of our Lord Jesus Christ,'' identified with ''the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ'' (v.7), is the period of blessing for the Church beginning with the rapture. This coming day is referred to as ''the day of the Lord Jesus''(1 Cor.5:5; 2 Cor. 1:14), ''the day of Jesus Christ'' (Phil.1:6), and ''the day of Christ'' (Phil.1:10; 2:16). (''The day of Christ'' in 2 Th.2:2 should be rendered ''the day of the Lord.'') ''The day of Christ'' in all six references in the N.T. is described as relating to the reward and blessing of the Church at the rapture and in contrast with the expression ''the day of the Lord'' (cp. Isa.2:12, marg.; Joel 1:15, note; Rev. 19:19, note), which is related to judgment upon unbelieving Jews and Gentiles, and blessing on millennial saints (Zeph.3:8-20)
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You said you are not interested in reading what others have written, and automatically classify them as misconceptions. This indicates that you are not serious about learning. Without the gift of pastor/teacher, you cannot study the Bible on your own without going into error, and compounding that error with other errors. Which is what you have done.
I have presented the facts distinquishing the rapture of the Church from the Second Advent of Christ. And I am fairly certain that you will disregard all this, as your hostility regarding the pre-tribulational rapture, and what others have to say about it, is clear. But for anyone who does care, there it is.
I have said it before and I will say it again. I study the materials of Dr. Lewis Sperry Chaffer who founded Dallas Theological Seminary, Robert B. Thieme JR. who was pastor of Berachah Church for over fifty years, and one of the best Bible teachers of the twentieth century, and others who know what they are talking about. And I am not in the least bit interested in what anyone who rejects the validity of the pre-tribulational rapture, has to say in opposition to it.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-08-2009 at 01:55 AM..
Quite simple actually. Rev19:7-10 shows the church-bride, in heaven, and verses 11 and following show the return of the Lord. Read the link I provided for your proof. And read my posts on the rapture and on dispensations. Anyone with even a thimbleful of doctrine should have enough sense to understand the pre-tribulational nature of the rapture. Study the material at this link, and learn the difference between the rapture of the church and the second advent of Christ.
As far as the day of the Lord, that includes the rapture, the last half of the Tribulation, the Second Advent, the Millennium, the time period for destroying the heavens and earth-2 Peter 3:10-13, and the time period for creating the new heavens and earth, totaling 1007 years.
The day of the Lord is also used for any portion of this period, the context dictating how long. Isa.2:12, 13:7; Joel 1:15, 2:1; Zech 14:1; Matthew 24:32-25:13; 1Thess 5:1-8; 2 Peter 3:8,10-13.
In contrast, the church is instructed to wait and look for His return for her, 1 Thess. 1:9-10, Tit. 2:13; Heb 9:28.
The rapture is shown in I Thess. 4:13-17; 1 Cor. 15:51-53; Phil 3:21; Titus 2:13.
In John 14:1-3 Christ speaks of coming back again (to the clouds) to receive the Church and take her back to the place He has prepared for her, ''In My Fathers house.'' This is the rapture or resurrection of the Church. In contrast, when Christ returns at the second Advent, He is on the earth, and not going back to heaven. Therefore, John 14:1-3 takes place before the second Advent.
The following is from the New Scofield reference Edition of the Bible. Pages 1146, 1233.
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John 14:3) As a part of this discourse, which has been of comfort to the Church throughout the centuries, the Lord gives a promise of His personal return for His own people, a doctrine that is expanded by the Apostle Paul in 1 Th. 4:13-18. This aspect of Christ's return is to be distinquished from His coming to the earth to establish His kingdom (Rev. 19:11-16)
1 Cor. 1:8) The expression ''the day of our Lord Jesus Christ,'' identified with ''the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ'' (v.7), is the period of blessing for the Church beginning with the rapture. This coming day is referred to as ''the day of the Lord Jesus''(1 Cor.5:5; 2 Cor. 1:14), ''the day of Jesus Christ'' (Phil.1:6), and ''the day of Christ'' (Phil.1:10; 2:16). (''The day of Christ'' in 2 Th.2:2 should be rendered ''the day of the Lord.'') ''The day of Christ'' in all six references in the N.T. is described as relating to the reward and blessing of the Church at the rapture and in contrast with the expression ''the day of the Lord'' (cp. Isa.2:12, marg.; Joel 1:15, note; Rev. 19:19, note), which is related to judgment upon unbelieving Jews and Gentiles, and blessing on millennial saints (Zeph.3:8-20)
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You said you are not interested in reading what others have written, and automatically classify them as misconceptions. This indicates that you are not serious about learning. Without the gift of pastor/teacher, you cannot study the Bible on your own without going into error, and compounding that error with other errors. Which is what you have done.
I have presented the facts distinquishing the rapture of the Church from the Second Advent of Christ. And I am fairly certain that you will disregard all this, as your hostility regarding the pre-tribulational rapture, and what others have to say about it, is clear. But for anyone who does care, there it is.
I have said it before and I will say it again. I study the materials of Dr. Lewis Sperry Chaffer who founded Dallas Theological Seminary, Robert B. Thieme JR. who was pastor of Berachah Church for over fifty years, and one of the best Bible teachers of the twentieth century, and others who know what they are talking about. And I am not in the least bit interested in what anyone who rejects the validity of the pre-tribulational rapture, has to say in opposition to it.
Gideon said,
On the contrary, you are taking scripture way out of context. The marriage of the Lamb has not even occurred as you suggest. We see clearly that Chapter 19 is merely announcing it. We see that more clearly in chapter 20 with Christ’s arrival the first resurrection occurs. This is the marriage, when the church is brought into union, through immortalilty with Christ, at the first resurrection on the last day. We know the first resurrection taking place is the only first resurrection in scripture; hence, this is the only resurrection of the righteous. This resurrection occurs on the last day of the Great Tribulation. Yet you falsely claim that the first resurrection has taken place 7 years earlier before the tribulation even gets started. You further claim that the wedding has already taken place seven years earlier, when in fact chapter 19 is merely announcing its imminence. The wedding has not taken place; Jesus is about to have union with his church on earth and raise them from the dead in the proceeding chapter 20.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Now we see clearly that there is no first resurrection any time before this, on the last day; lest you dare say there is, prove it in scripture. Do not take one small verse out of context, that even stands by itself to depict its meaning in Revelation 19, as it is obvious the wedding has not taken place but is merely being announced here. The wedding has come, not has occurred. Nor should you confuse the armies in heaven that return with Christ as the entire church; this group of beings are angels, the saints from throughout the ages from Adam to the last martyr, and most likely horses and chariots of fire with other unimaginalble hosts. They, the dead in the Lord or saints of the ages, are returning to receive their immortalized bodies and see them resurrect from the dead.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Now you must falsely claim this in not the first resurrection, on the last day. You must falsely claim there in a first resurrection seven years before the GT ends or at the beginning of the seven years. Yet you cannot show us one verse in scripture that says that. Now, not only can I show these verses that prove the resurrection is on the last day I can show you many. Yet it is impossible for you to show one that supports this theory filled with fallacy and lies.
It is plain and simple in scripture, the church raises from the dead on the last day. They, the dead saints from the ages, and the martyrs from Revelation return with Christ on the last day to receive their rewards, and their immortalized bodies on that day.
Jhn 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Jhn 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 7:37
In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. Jhn 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jhn 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Throughout scripture, there is nothing that supports, nothing I repeat, that supports any kind of a pre-tribulation resurrection, but rather all scripture says this will occur on the last day as seen in revelation 20. Revelation 10 and 11 not only shows the resurrection of the dead behind veal, but it demonstrates this time will also bring them their rewards, on the last day. We will see that in Revelation 10 and 11.
5And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: 7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. We see all this come to pass in revelation 10 and 11.
Now here we see many things: the last trumpet, the seventh angel or last angel to sound the last trumpet, the last day, time becomes no longer when the angel sounds, and finally the mystery of God becomes complete. When the angel sounds we see the mystery beginning to unfold. What is the mystery? Paul tells us exactly what it is. It is not something we are not supposes to know, but rather something that will only be realized when it is experienced.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Now here we see the last trumpet, or seventh trumpet of Revelation; pre-tribers cannot claim this is not the last trumpet as there is no other last trumpet in scripture. This is the only last trumpet God in his sovereignty has given us. Hence it is the last trumpet, Rev 11. When the trumpet sounds as seen in Revelation 11 the saints or dead rise to receive their rewards. The kingdoms of earth become our Lords or simply put, the Millennium begins. Here in I Cor 15 we see the dead and living being changed in the blinking of an eye or twinkling. Now let's see what Revelation 11 says.
13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Then angel in chapter 10 announced the last trumpet and said the mystery would be complete as proclaimed to the prophets. Here we see it coming to fruition. The last angel sounds on the last day and many things occur. Christ's millennial reign begins first off. Secondly, the kings and nations are angry because their time of judgment has come as they have a new king over them now. It is also the time of the dead saints, or the time of the first resurrection, that the servants of God should raise to receive their rewards. Now all this takes place on the last day of the GT, when time becomes no longer because they become immortal. Time has no bearing on them anymore. They no time no more and shall reign with Christ. Hence this marks the last day as prophesied in scripture when the saints become immortal, even as Martha prophesied. Most importantly, it marks the beginning of Christ reign on earth; we shall reign with him as kings and priest.
In order for the pre-tribulation fantasy to be real, scripture would have had to present two last trumpets, two first resurrections, two weddings, two returns of Christ, two beamas or rewards ceremonies, two seventh angels that sound, and finally somewhere it would have had to demonstrate that one of these comings is a secret, hidden, silent one, with no preceding signs to signify it. Nowhere, I repeat, anywhere do we see that in scripture.
This pre-tribulation ideology is a mere fantasy or fairytale designed by Darby most likely to instill fear in the hearts of people. The fear was brought about by the notion that Jesus could come any day, and people should be ready; they falsely claim he could have come any day after his ascention, without any preceedings signs. Yet, in their consious they admit there are signs. Don’t you always hear those saying things as, “man Jesus could come any day; look around? The fear history demonstrates brought much profits to Darby and Scofield as well as pastor's of local churches. Afterall, people were being told, they should give of time and money to the cause of Christ as he could come any day. People fell for this lie in local churches and over exhasted there resources, monetarily and physically. We still see that today.
There is absolutely nothing they can present that has any soundness to it when measured with scripture and prophecy. There will be no pre-tribulation rapture, wedding, or return of Christ. That is quite obvious with just the verses just presented. Yet they still claim there is. Why? The answer is found in scripture. Lord willing we will cover that also, but it has to do with the heart of the matter. Further we just briefly touched on a few verses; we have not begun to cover the terminology and translation of various words, when we do so it becomes even more obvious.
By the way, Mike555, I would like for you to demonstrate, as you stated how Paul expands the doctrine of Pretribulationism in I Thes 4. Show us where you see pretribulationism here. It is not there. It is one of those bunnies again they pull out of a hat. You place meaning in this chapter that does not exist at all. I tripple dare challenge you to show us a pre-trib rapture of Chapter 4 or anywhere for that matter. Could you kindly expound on that for us, just chapter 4 or I Thes. Show us how you have arrived at that conclusion you just made here below and above.
Now you stated the rapture occurs in these verses; please show us in detail how "you" arrive at that.
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In contrast, the church is instructed to wait and look for His return for her, 1 Thess. 1:9-10, Tit. 2:13; Heb 9:28.
The rapture is shown in I Thess. 4:13-17; 1 Cor. 15:51-53; Phil 3:21; Titus 2:13.
You further stated this; demonstrate in detail, as I have done with scripture how you arrive at your conclusion.All we need you to do is demonstrate these two last areas you claim to be a pre-tribulation rapture. Be prepared, as I am prepared to easily debunk that.
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the Lord gives a promise of His personal return for His own people, a doctrine that is expanded by the Apostle Paul in 1 Th. 4:13-18. This aspect of Christ's return is to be distinquished from His coming to the earth to establish His kingdom (Rev. 19:11-16)
Could you demonstrate this for us, as there in no such thing enclosed in these verse. Your false assumption is based on a Darbyist tradition, rather than facts to support it. As I stated before, I will not waist my time with a link you are baing your beliefs on. Preferably I would like to here your own expostion on these matters; please no cutting and pasting.
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In contrast, the church is instructed to wait and look for His return for her, 1 Thess. 1:9-10, Tit. 2:13; Heb 9:28.
Here you contradict yourself completely as else where, as you claim the coming could be at anymoment, and any moment from the asccention of Christ with no preceeding signs; you are a pre-tribulationist? Are'nt you?. Yet you admit we are to watch. Do you know what we are to watch for??? Do you know the significance of that word "Watch" and what it means in the Greek; though it really doe not matter as it is self explanitory with exposition where it is used. Hint we have already covered it briefly in these writings.
Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-08-2009 at 08:31 AM..
Gideon said, take note; the same verbs are used here, wrath "is come", meaning it is about to arrive and can be seen. We see this same scenario with Revelation 19, marriage of the Lamb "is come",what this simply means is it has not occurred but it is here and about to commence and unfold before our eyes. The picture is that of seeing the bride waiting to join the groom in holy matrimony as they approach the altar before the congregation. So to say the wedding has already occurred as with the resurrection is preposterous and not true at all. Revelation proves this even further, as we see the first and only first resurrection seen in scripture occur. To believe it has happened already, seven years earlier is completely contrary to what is taught in scripture, and this beleif system has no scripture to support it. For such they pick and choose verses and try to explain to you what they mean in their own selfish, confused reasoning, as apposed to allowing the scriptures to do that for us, as clearly demonstrated here.
The most important aspect of the "wrath" to pay heed to is that the wrath is come; this simply means it has not occured over the past seven years of tribulatoin as the pre-trib camp has falsely speculated. It has come; the picture here is it is at the door, at his parousia. We can see it coming with Christ as it arrives, with him comes his wrath at his parousia or at his arrival. Yet they claim it is God that is killing the saints, duing the GT; it is God persecuting and troubling the church, not Satan during the total seven years of tribulation. They clearly confuse the wrath of God which ocurs at the end of the GT, with the troubles and persecution, martyrdom and mark of the beast implemented by Satan during the tribulation. The two are distinctly different, any saint with a morsal of spirituality should be able to see the two are vastly different and have two mastersne being God, while the other is brought on by Satan. God so to speak is indirectly pouring his wrath on those left behind to face the antichrist, they falsely proclaim this loudly in their misonstrued reasoning. So the end result according to them is the ones receiving the trouble and persecution are seeing God's wrath. When we get into the discussion of the terminology, we will see very clearly that Satan is the one bringing on the wrath, troubles and persecution during the tribulation not God. Finally, we see clearly the wrath of God does not arrive until the last day of the GT. This debunks the Pre-trib rapture falasy entirely.
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Once again, clearly the wrath just arrives at the end of the GT. Yet without showing any verses to support their false claim, they demand you follow this dogma, that the wrath of God is transpiring over a seven year time frame, before it is suppose to arrive, as clearly seen in scripture, on the last day. We see even the dead saints, servants, and prophets will rise to get their rewards, even them that fear his name, small and great. He will also destroy them that have destroyed the earth with His "wrath." So clearly seen, as scripture records it literally, the dead rise on the last day of the GT, the dead risen saints receive their rewards on the last day, God's wrath comes on the last day, the seventh angel sounds the last trumpet on the last day, Christ takes possession of earh's kingdoms on the last day, and finally the kings of the earth become angry and proceed to try and fight Christ on that last day. The result is they see and experience God's wrath being poured on them for their rebellion on the last day. This is the wrath we see in Thes and elsewhere in scripture. We do not experience God's wrath; God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by the blood of the lamb. The other whom do experience His wrath will see it on earth as well as in the lake of fire, as the go down with the Satanic trinity to the LOF.
BTW, you still have not elaborated on this for us at all. All you did was pulled a couple of verses, took them completely out of context and attempted to build a pre-trib falasy around that. This presentation you have made is poor and typical of the pre-trib camp, with no support to surround it.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-08-2009 at 10:39 AM..
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Gideon said we will be with Jesus whether we live or die before his coming; this passage you present has nothing to do with a pre-tribulation rapture. It refers to the fact that Jesus will receive us unto himself, whether we sleep or are awake at his coming or at one's death. When we die, he takes us to heaven, and has a place prepared for us. So we will be with Jesus if we die before he returns. We will be with him if we live when he returns. Hence he tells us we will be with him where so ever he goes. So when he returns, we return with him as the body of Christ which died in the Lord. The living remains here until he arrives. At which point we are all joined to him.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
So we will be with Jesus where ever he goes. If we die before he returns at the end of the GT, we will be with him forever more. If we live until he comes at the end of the GT, we will join him in rapture. He goes and prepares a dwelling place for us. Not that it matters, but the word, mansion, when translated from the Greek really means a dwelling place. So he goes to prepare for us a dwelling place. God has a dwelling place for many saints in heaven now. Many saints are at that place now. This set of verses above is a perfect example of how they take one verse, take it out of context, and ignore all other verses that demand, dipict, and conclude a post-tribulation rapture. From this passage we can not conclude a pre-tribulational rapture at all. We are told in scripture that whether we sleep or wake, we are to comfort one another with these words of assurance. Jesus is telling us that he will receive us unto himself and has a place prepared for us. Nowhere does he tell us he is going to secretly fly us away in this passage, no where. This passage has nothing to do with a pre-tribulation rapture as you suggest it does. This is a prefect example of how they pic and pull verses as a magician pulls a bunny out of a hat. THey try to deceive the simple minded, by not expounding on the verses that surround it or that are related to it. They only mension a small passage, ignore the surrounding facts, and build their ideology around it. All accounts in scriture do not support a pre-tribulation rapture as this does not either.
For such this falasy demands two of everything in scripture: a duplication of the last trumpet, a duplication of the first resurrection, a duplication of the second coming etc. This is heresy and nonsensical, yet many blind follow this dogma. They have been proven incorrect again, and they still can not present anything else. One third of their presentation has already been made. Yet the other parts are simple to disprove also.
Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-08-2009 at 02:47 PM..
Gideon said,
On the contrary, you are taking scripture way out of context. The marriage of the Lamb has not even occurred as you suggest. We see clearly that Chapter 19 is merely announcing it. We see that more clearly in chapter 20 with Christ’s arrival the first resurrection occurs. This is the marriage, when the church is brought into union, through immortalilty with Christ, at the first resurrection on the last day. We know the first resurrection taking place is the only first resurrection in scripture; hence, this is the only resurrection of the righteous. This resurrection occurs on the last day of the Great Tribulation. Yet you falsely claim that the first resurrection has taken place 7 years earlier before the tribulation even gets started. You further claim that the wedding has already taken place seven years earlier, when in fact chapter 19 is merely announcing its imminence. The wedding has not taken place; Jesus is about to have union with his church on earth and raise them from the dead in the proceeding chapter 20.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Now we see clearly that there is no first resurrection any time before this, on the last day; lest you dare say there is, prove it in scripture. Do not take one small verse out of context, that even stands by itself to depict its meaning in Revelation 19, as it is obvious the wedding has not taken place but is merely being announced here. The wedding has come, not has occurred. Nor should you confuse the armies in heaven that return with Christ as the entire church; this group of beings are angels, the saints from throughout the ages from Adam to the last martyr, and most likely horses and chariots of fire with other unimaginalble hosts. They, the dead in the Lord or saints of the ages, are returning to receive their immortalized bodies and see them resurrect from the dead.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Now you must falsely claim this in not the first resurrection, on the last day. You must falsely claim there in a first resurrection seven years before the GT ends or at the beginning of the seven years. Yet you cannot show us one verse in scripture that says that. Now, not only can I show these verses that prove the resurrection is on the last day I can show you many. Yet it is impossible for you to show one that supports this theory filled with fallacy and lies.
It is plain and simple in scripture, the church raises from the dead on the last day. They, the dead saints from the ages, and the martyrs from Revelation return with Christ on the last day to receive their rewards, and their immortalized bodies on that day.
Jhn 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Jhn 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 7:37
In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. Jhn 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jhn 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Throughout scripture, there is nothing that supports, nothing I repeat, that supports any kind of a pre-tribulation resurrection, but rather all scripture says this will occur on the last day as seen in revelation 20. Revelation 10 and 11 not only shows the resurrection of the dead behind veal, but it demonstrates this time will also bring them their rewards, on the last day. We will see that in Revelation 10 and 11.
5And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: 7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. We see all this come to pass in revelation 10 and 11.
Now here we see many things: the last trumpet, the seventh angel or last angel to sound the last trumpet, the last day, time becomes no longer when the angel sounds, and finally the mystery of God becomes complete. When the angel sounds we see the mystery beginning to unfold. What is the mystery? Paul tells us exactly what it is. It is not something we are not supposes to know, but rather something that will only be realized when it is experienced.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Now here we see the last trumpet, or seventh trumpet of Revelation; pre-tribers cannot claim this is not the last trumpet as there is no other last trumpet in scripture. This is the only last trumpet God in his sovereignty has given us. Hence it is the last trumpet, Rev 11. When the trumpet sounds as seen in Revelation 11 the saints or dead rise to receive their rewards. The kingdoms of earth become our Lords or simply put, the Millennium begins. Here in I Cor 15 we see the dead and living being changed in the blinking of an eye or twinkling. Now let's see what Revelation 11 says.
13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Then angel in chapter 10 announced the last trumpet and said the mystery would be complete as proclaimed to the prophets. Here we see it coming to fruition. The last angel sounds on the last day and many things occur. Christ's millennial reign begins first off. Secondly, the kings and nations are angry because their time of judgment has come as they have a new king over them now. It is also the time of the dead saints, or the time of the first resurrection, that the servants of God should raise to receive their rewards. Now all this takes place on the last day of the GT, when time becomes no longer because they become immortal. Time has no bearing on them anymore. They no time no more and shall reign with Christ. Hence this marks the last day as prophesied in scripture when the saints become immortal, even as Martha prophesied. Most importantly, it marks the beginning of Christ reign on earth; we shall reign with him as kings and priest.
In order for the pre-tribulation fantasy to be real, scripture would have had to present two last trumpets, two first resurrections, two weddings, two returns of Christ, two beamas or rewards ceremonies, two seventh angels that sound, and finally somewhere it would have had to demonstrate that one of these comings is a secret, hidden, silent one, with no preceding signs to signify it. Nowhere, I repeat, anywhere do we see that in scripture.
This pre-tribulation ideology is a mere fantasy or fairytale designed by Darby most likely to instill fear in the hearts of people. The fear was brought about by the notion that Jesus could come any day, and people should be ready; they falsely claim he could have come any day after his ascention, without any preceedings signs. Yet, in their consious they admit there are signs. Don’t you always hear those saying things as, “man Jesus could come any day; look around? The fear history demonstrates brought much profits to Darby and Scofield as well as pastor's of local churches. Afterall, people were being told, they should give of time and money to the cause of Christ as he could come any day. People fell for this lie in local churches and over exhasted there resources, monetarily and physically. We still see that today.
There is absolutely nothing they can present that has any soundness to it when measured with scripture and prophecy. There will be no pre-tribulation rapture, wedding, or return of Christ. That is quite obvious with just the verses just presented. Yet they still claim there is. Why? The answer is found in scripture. Lord willing we will cover that also, but it has to do with the heart of the matter. Further we just briefly touched on a few verses; we have not begun to cover the terminology and translation of various words, when we do so it becomes even more obvious.
By the way, Mike555, I would like for you to demonstrate, as you stated how Paul expands the doctrine of Pretribulationism in I Thes 4. Show us where you see pretribulationism here. It is not there. It is one of those bunnies again they pull out of a hat. You place meaning in this chapter that does not exist at all. I tripple dare challenge you to show us a pre-trib rapture of Chapter 4 or anywhere for that matter. Could you kindly expound on that for us, just chapter 4 or I Thes. Show us how you have arrived at that conclusion you just made here below and above.
Now you stated the rapture occurs in these verses; please show us in detail how "you" arrive at that.
You further stated this; demonstrate in detail, as I have done with scripture how you arrive at your conclusion.All we need you to do is demonstrate these two last areas you claim to be a pre-tribulation rapture. Be prepared, as I am prepared to easily debunk that.
Could you demonstrate this for us, as there in no such thing enclosed in these verse. Your false assumption is based on a Darbyist tradition, rather than facts to support it. As I stated before, I will not waist my time with a link you are baing your beliefs on. Preferably I would like to here your own expostion on these matters; please no cutting and pasting.
Here you contradict yourself completely as else where, as you claim the coming could be at anymoment, and any moment from the asccention of Christ with no preceeding signs; you are a pre-tribulationist? Are'nt you?. Yet you admit we are to watch. Do you know what we are to watch for??? Do you know the significance of that word "Watch" and what it means in the Greek; though it really doe not matter as it is self explanitory with exposition where it is used. Hint we have already covered it briefly in these writings.
The marriage of the Church takes place in Heaven. Revelation 19:7 shows this. Since, for whatever reason, you reject the pre-Tribulational rapture, you must therefore attempt to deny this. The marriage supper of the Lamb in Revelaton 19:9 takes place later, on the earth, after the Second Advent of Christ. The ones who are invited to the marriage supper are the tribulational martyrs and Old Testament saints who were resurrected at the end of the Tribulation.They are spoken of in Revelation 20:4 ''...they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
It seems you ignore the fact that the day of the Lord is a period that in total, covers a period of a thousand and seven years, or any part of that time, depending on the context of the particular verse. I supplied several.
The first resurrection takes place in four stages.
1) Jesus Christ. Matthew 28
2) The Church-Pre-Tribulational Rapture. John 14:3; Acts 1:11; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Thess.2:6; Phil. 3:20,21; 1 Thess. 4:15-18
3) Old Testament saints and Tribulational martyrs are resurrected at the end of the Tribulation. Revelation 20:4 ''and they came to life and reigned for a thousand years.''
4) Millennium saints are resurrected at the end of the Millennium. Rev. 20:5. ''The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.''
After stage four is accomplished, that then is the completion of the first resurrection. Rev. 20:5,6 ''This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection...''
The Trumpet at the rapture is not the Trumpet at the second Advent of Christ. The Trumpet of the Church-Age is called the ''trump of God'' (1 Thess 4:16). The Trumpet of the Seventh Angel in (Rev 11:15) has to do with Christ's reign being foreseen.
It is a common argument among those who reject the reality of the pre-Tribulational rapture, that the two different Trumpets are the same. But they are not.
The imminency of the rapture simply means that there is no prophecy that needs to be fulfilled before the rapture returns. We are to look forward to it, knowing that it could happen at any time. Therefore, we are to be prepared for it.
I am going to leave it here at this, as you are not going to listen anyway. Your viewpoint is unscriptural and I will leave you to it.
The marriage of the Church takes place in Heaven. Revelation 19:7 shows this. Since, for whatever reason, you reject the pre-Tribulational rapture, you must therefore attempt to deny this. The marriage supper of the Lamb in Revelaton 19:9 takes place later, on the earth, after the Second Advent of Christ. The ones who are invited to the marriage supper are the tribulational martyrs and Old Testament saints who were resurrected at the end of the Tribulation.They are spoken of in Revelation 20:4 ''...they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
It seems you ignore the fact that the day of the Lord is a period that in total, covers a period of a thousand and seven years, or any part of that time, depending on the context of the particular verse. I supplied several.
The first resurrection takes place in four stages.
1) Jesus Christ. Matthew 28
2) The Church-Pre-Tribulational Rapture. John 14:3; Acts 1:11; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Thess.2:6; Phil. 3:20,21; 1 Thess. 4:15-18
3) Old Testament saints and Tribulational martyrs are resurrected at the end of the Tribulation. Revelation 20:4 ''and they came to life and reigned for a thousand years.''
4) Millennium saints are resurrected at the end of the Millennium. Rev. 20:5. ''The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.''
After stage four is accomplished, that then is the completion of the first resurrection. Rev. 20:5,6 ''This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection...''
The Trumpet at the rapture is not the Trumpet at the second Advent of Christ. The Trumpet of the Church-Age is called the ''trump of God'' (1 Thess 4:16). The Trumpet of the Seventh Angel in (Rev 11:15) has to do with Christ's reign being foreseen.
It is a common argument among those who reject the reality of the pre-Tribulational rapture, that the two different Trumpets are the same. But they are not.
The imminency of the rapture simply means that there is no prophecy that needs to be fulfilled before the rapture returns. We are to look forward to it, knowing that it could happen at any time. Therefore, we are to be prepared for it.
I am going to leave it here at this, as you are not going to listen anyway. Your viewpoint is unscriptural and I will leave you to it.
Gideon said, I am disappointed Mike555; I thought you would present more than this, and in your own words. As I said previously, way before Mike joined us, pretribulationists have a tendency of always always playing monkey see monkey do. For such a reason Mike555 can not even show us or expound in his own words the pretribualtion rapture in I Thes 4 as he stated it was there. Ok, Mike555, I will give you one more opportunity to do that for us. Remeber this is what you said. I understand it is quite some task to do that and this is why I have narrowed it down to one passage for you, though you can use other references if you would like. Just utilize this passage you gave as a base as it is the basis of your claim here.
Mike555's claim that the rapture occurs in I Thes 4
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the Lord gives a promise of His personal return for His own people, a doctrine that is expanded by the Apostle Paul in 1 Th. 4:13-18. This aspect of Christ's return is to be distinquished from His coming to the earth to establish His kingdom (Rev. 19:11-16)
Ok, Mike555 the race is on; let's go. Otherwise I will get to the terminology soon, Lord willing and this will debunk it for you. But the wording in the English already does it for us, FYI.
Man you are really off base; most pretribers at least believe in two first resurrections. You seem to have double the problem they do as you claim there is four first resurrections. The presentation you have made is wreckless and obsurd. So show us in I Thes 4 where your pre-tribulation rapture is.
As I stated before, they have to have two of everything to attempt making their folly believable. They use references from different people of what is the obvious same event as Mark and Mathew or Paul and falsely claim them to be different events, but they are not. I suppose they think the sun and moon will be darkened twice also; as with the stars, they will fall twice also. It is incredible how Satan has deceieved people into believing lies or having pleasure in unrighteouness or error as II Thes 2 describes. For this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie. They did not have a love for the truth. What I find even more amazing is that Mike555 believes in four first resurrections. The Bible clearly only shows us one, as there is only one last trumpet. Show us the other last trumpet Mike555. Give us a verse that states it is another. Do not assume just because it is a seperate reference that it is another last trumpet. Finally, I guess you believe there are two saviors since the scriptures make reference to Jesus' birth more than once, by different authors. You must also claim this, Mike555. Perhaps they were all crucified. Now some may think, you are being silly. No, I am just trying to demonstrate a point; Mike555's claims are obsurd.
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The Trumpet at the rapture is not the Trumpet at the second Advent of Christ. The Trumpet of the Church-Age is called the ''trump of God'' (1 Thess 4:16). The Trumpet of the Seventh Angel in (Rev 11:15) has to do with Christ's reign being foreseen.
This is obsurd and blasphemous to God's word. But we will be happy if you can just show us the secret, pretrib rapture in I Thes 4. I guraantee you that you will be unable to do so.
This trumpet seen in the references he gave are all the same trumpet, and it sounds on the last day. Each reference is designed to give us specific detail about the same event. God used different settings and personalities to bring this data to us. It is like putting a *** saw puzzle together. Yet he claims they are all seperate *** saw puzzles. Escatology is a bit confusing as it is; God would have never done that to us...God has made it simple and uderstandable to the saints; he will send strong delusion to those that refuse the love of the truth. At some point, when sinners come to their full or when the apostacy has come to a full, it will be too late for those whom had pleasure in error to repent. When the word unrighteousness is translated, it tells us they had pleasure in error, error from receiving the love of the truth. That is deep stuff my friends, really deep
wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11 And for this causeGod shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2Th 2:12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness (pleasure in error) Paul gives us some heavy consequence for not receiving and loving the truth. We will get into this with more detail later.
I will pray for you Mike555
Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-08-2009 at 06:32 PM..
Before we move on to the terminology, I thought we should translate II Thes 2 first so we can see what it really means. This should make the terminology section flow a bit easier.Now we will see most pretribulationists think this is either split in two parts or consist of two second comings, while others usually believe it is the second part of the second coming at the end of the GT, or the Revelation, apokolypcia should we say. Mike555 admits this is the same second coming in I Thes 4; he just claims it is not the same as seen in Revelaton 20. Now I have never seen that reasoning before by a pre-tribulatonist.As I stated before there is only one second coming and this reference only represents specific details about that one single event not displayed in the other refereces. Paul makes a correction hear for the church as their thoughts were eroneous. We will see that clearly.
I would like to challenge the reader to read this, II Thes 2 over and over again as well as I Thes 4, and 5. This will make it easier to understand. I assure you, the light will shine forth for the saints. Lord willing we will pick it up later today or tomorrow.
Many blessings
Gideon
2 Thessalonians 2 (King James Version)
2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-09-2009 at 06:16 AM..
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ne being God, while the other is brought on by Satan. God so to speak is indirectly pouring his wrath on those left behind to face the antichrist, they falsely proclaim this loudly in their misonstrued reasoning. So the end result according to them is the ones receiving the trouble and persecution are seeing God's wrath. When we get into the discussion of the terminology, we will see very clearly that Satan is the one bringing on the wrath, troubles and persecution during the tribulation not God. Finally, we see clearly the wrath of God does not arrive until the last day of the GT. This debunks the Pre-trib rapture falasy entirely.
