The Blessed Hope of the Believers (Gospels, Epistles, Sodom, testimony)

[Verna Perry]

Originally Posted by Gideon7620

Gideon said,

I too take God's words seriously and literally. I maintain an expository, literal verbal plenary interpretation of the events enclosed in scripture. However to arrive at some effectiveness in interpreting the scriptures, it is more affective to utilize books, as a concordance, and a Greek and Hebrew dictionary to unfold meanings which can not be arrived at by just reading the Word. At times they are thinly vealed in a cloud so to speak, but to clearly and vividly see them we must use these other sources at times.

At age 5 I accepted Christ as Savior and did not grow up in a Christian home. I was filled with the spirit at five but lost fellowship with my savior as I had no direction in a non Christian home; Though I know, I never lost salvation. Under the leadership of a spirit filled missionary, I rededicated my life to Christ at about age 19. I have found we are at war with Satan.

I am confused when you state you were saved in 1988 but did not come to the knowledge of the truth until 9 months ago. Jesus is the truth, life and the only way; I came to the knowledge of the truth at age five. I will never forget the day he imputed his righteousness on me to cover my sins. I will never forget the day he sanctified me as a saint. I will never forget the day he regenerated me as a saint of the Most high God. As time went on I grew in his grace and knowledge but I found the truth at age five.

Now you mentioned that you keep the Sabbath. Are you a seventh day Adventist? That is my immediate guess. If so then you think I have already accepted the Mark of the beast as I do not go to church on Saturday or anyday for that matter. When I came back into fellowship with God, it was during the week for the most part. Further, if you are then you also believe that when the Mark of the Beast does come out, that it will not be the mark, but rather not going to church on Saturday is the mark. I am not saying this is the case with you. I am just asking if it is.

I correct myself, I do use a concordance and a Greek and Hebrew dictionary as well...as I think we should.

I've come to understand, from reading many posts here on this forum, that many people find their answers from sources other than the Scriptures, for many different reasons they do not believe that the Scriptures we have available to us today are the divinely inspired Word of God, they believe that they are incorrect man-made uninspired translations...that they are in error. This is why I felt I needed to clarify that I only need the Bible, just as it is.

I agree wholeheartedly that we are at war with Satan...his powers of darkness, deception and corruption are running rampant in the hearts and minds of people. To come against it, we must first acknowledge that this is a very real evil force that is all around us, and its only aim is to destroy all that is good and holy and righteous. How can one come against something they do not acknowledge?

Hopefully to help you in your confusion in what I stated concerning salvation:

I believe that when we first confess with our mouth and believe in our hearts with a pure heart that Jesus is our Lord, then our process of salvation begins, that we have not yet come to the knowledge of the truth...this comes with growth from a baby Christian to a mature Christian.

We then have the Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us in the way that we should go...convicting our consciences...cleansing and purifying us by the fires of trials and tribulations that we go through that strengthens and grows us into a mature Christian...this takes time and each person's time is different as to when they reach their own point of spiritual maturity. This is when we truly repent of our sins. I believe that this place that we arrive at is in the will of God, and God alone knows when we have come to this place and baptizes us in the Holy Ghost with power to overcome all willfull sin. We are to keep His commandments, the ten commandments, if we love Him. We are commanded to keep the Sabbath holy unto God, the first day of the week, Friday evening to Saturday evening...it is the fourth commandment. God didn't say keep 9 commandments, he said to keep all ten...make no mistake. If you still sin, then you know you have not repented of your sins, and you are not yet a child of God, but still a child of the devil. 1 John 3:4 states: "Whosoever comitteth sin transgresseth also the Law: for sin is the transgression of the Law."

You still can turn from your wicked ways unto righteousness unto salvation by truly repenting of your sin and being born again into the nature of God, leaving the old man, your sinful nature, behind. There must be a change from living in the flesh to living in the Spirit of Christ. You can, as well, lose your salvation by turning back to your old sinful nature once you have received the knowledge of the truth. Hebrews 10:26 states: "For if we sin willfully after having received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." You can absolutely lose your salvation.

I am not a SDA!.....No way! Never have been. No crazy , way out there "Mark of the Beast" stuff that you mentioned. I'm simply a Christian, a follower of Christ. I was a Methodist as a child, because that is what my parents were, and then in 1988, I was non-denominational, under Benny Hinn for 13 years...the past 9 years I've attended one church, on Sunday's...also non-denominational, of which I am on my out very soon. The false teachings of Modern Day Christianity had lead me into nothing but darkness and confusion, until I came into the knowledge of the truth 9 months ago...at which point I truly became a child of God. It took 21 years to get here spiritually...and what a journey it has been! I am secure now in my faith and in my relationship with the Lord...and there is still so much I want to learn!

We do have vast differences in our beliefs.

Verna.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Verna Perry

I correct myself, I do use a concordance and a Greek and Hebrew dictionary as well...as I think we should.

I've come to understand, from reading many posts here on this forum, that many people find their answers from sources other than the Scriptures, for many different reasons they do not believe that the Scriptures we have available to us today are the divinely inspired Word of God, they believe that they are incorrect man-made uninspired translations...that they are in error. This is why I felt I needed to clarify that I only need the Bible, just as it is.

This is your misunderstanding, Verna . . . we believe they are inspired (but NOT dictated). That means they are subject to interpretation based on the knowledge, culture and cognitive concepts available to those who received them (ignorant primitive savages many thousands of years in the past). To assume they are inerrant or infallible presentations of what God intended to "inspire" them to understand is absurd. But we CAN assume that they still contain the SPIRITUAL TRUTH that God wished to communicate for our SPIRITUAL EDIFICATION (NOT CARNAL).

[Gideon7620]

Originally Posted by Verna Perry

Hopefully to help you in your confusion in what I stated concerning salvation:

I believe that when we first confess with our mouth and believe in our hearts with a pure heart that Jesus is our Lord, then our process of salvation begins, that we have not yet come to the knowledge of the truth...this comes with growth from a baby Christian to a mature Christian.

We then have the Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us in the way that we should go...convicting our consciences...cleansing and purifying us by the fires of trials and tribulations that we go through that strengthens and grows us into a mature Christian...this takes time and each person's time is different as to when they reach their own point of spiritual maturity. This is when we truly repent of our sins. I believe that this place that we arrive at is in the will of God, and God alone knows when we have come to this place and baptizes us in the Holy Ghost with power to overcome all willfull sin. We are to keep His commandments, the ten commandments, if we love Him. We are commanded to keep the Sabbath holy unto God, the first day of the week, Friday evening to Saturday evening...it is the fourth commandment. God didn't say keep 9 commandments, he said to keep all ten...make no mistake. If you still sin, then you know you have not repented of your sins, and you are not yet a child of God, but still a child of the devil. 1 John 3:4 states: "Whosoever comitteth sin transgresseth also the Law: for sin is the transgression of the Law."

You still can turn from your wicked ways unto righteousness unto salvation by truly repenting of your sin and being born again into the nature of God, leaving the old man, your sinful nature, behind. There must be a change from living in the flesh to living in the Spirit of Christ. You can, as well, lose your salvation by turning back to your old sinful nature once you have received the knowledge of the truth. Hebrews 10:26 states: "For if we sin willfully after having received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." You can absolutely lose your salvation.

I am not a SDA!.....No way! Never have been. No crazy , way out there "Mark of the Beast" stuff that you mentioned. I'm simply a Christian, a follower of Christ. I was a Methodist as a child, because that is what my parents were, and then in 1988, I was non-denominational, under Benny Hinn for 13 years...the past 9 years I've attended one church, on Sunday's...also non-denominational, of which I am on my out very soon. The false teachings of Modern Day Christianity had lead me into nothing but darkness and confusion, until I came into the knowledge of the truth 9 months ago...at which point I truly became a child of God. It took 21 years to get here spiritually...and what a journey it has been! I am secure now in my faith and in my relationship with the Lord...and there is still so much I want to learn!

We do have vast differences in our beliefs.

Verna.

Gideon said, so it definitely appears you have a doctrine of the Seventh Day Adventist group. My beliefs are much different as I see them in God's word. David asks God to restore the joy of his salvation and fellowship after he fell into sin with Bathsheba. He never lost his salvation only his communion with God and the joy were lost. John tells us we know we are saved in the present progressive, meaning we know in the present and progressive tense. Salvation is not something that can be earned by works of righteousness, but according to his mercy he saved us, Past tense. Once we are saved nothing can break that or take it away, not even growing up in a non Christian home can. We do not work our way into salvation by good works and keeping his commandments. The commandments are important for the saint to keep, but there in none righteous not one, no one can keep them, neither you nor I. If we think the wrong thought, which we all do every day, we have broken the commandments. If we break one we have broken all commands. We live in a fallen body that sins and we sin daily whether we realize it or not. Clearly the scriptures tell us God gave us the Ten Commandments as a school master to prove to us we needed a Savior that never sinned to impute his righteousness on us for our sins past, present and future. Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound. God forbid. Yes we are to live holly lives and be separated unto God, but none, I repeat none can keep the Ten Commandments, not even after being saved. None can lose salvation ever as you have suggested. I am not here to debate salvation, regeneration, imputation, sanctification and God's approbation with any. Certainly keeping the Sabbath has nothing to do with salvation as keeping any of the commandments do not have anything to do with salvation. God saves us by his grace not by our works. That is plain and simple in scripture.


I am here to edify and inform the saints of the error in the return of Christ in most local, bible believing churches. We are also here to discuss the most likely probability that America is Babylon also. So if you want to argue about salvation; maybe you should kindly do that in another thread. I clearly pointed out my motives when I started and do not care to waste time and energy arguing something with you that is already settle with us in our faith.

So I guess the question to ask is you already believe that we have accepted the Mark of the Beast by not worshiping during the Sabbath correct? I contend this to be most inaccurate, as the mark will be a literal marking system and it certainly has not been accepted by people that do not worship on Sunday. Hitler employed the same doctrine as the UN security council may try to do again. So the ideal here is they may kill saints someday for not accepting the mark or RFD chips not for not worshipping on Sunday; they martyrs come forth for not accepting the mark or RFD chip. We will get to the mark later, but it is important to know if you believe we have accepted the mark for not worshiping on Sunday.

With that being ask, we will continue on to The Blessed Hope of the believer and we will demonstrate some history etc of where certain false doctrines came from.

So definately, I will not take time or energy to argue salvation against this apparently false, doctrine you proclaim. It has nothing to do with this subject matter/ my purpose here is to edify the saints that are saved by the blood of the Lamb, to edify the saints that believe in salvation by grace and not of works, lest any dare boast. None can keep the commands, even after salvation occurs, not even 38 years later. We live in a sinful fallen Body and nature. We all have sinned in Adam, but through Christ we can all be propitiated for.

The heavens declare the Glory of the Lord.
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]

[ChristyGrl]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

This is your misunderstanding, Verna . . . we believe they are inspired (but NOT dictated). That means they are subject to interpretation based on the knowledge, culture and cognitive concepts available to those who received them (ignorant primitive savages many thousands of years in the past). To assume they are inerrant or infallible presentations of what God intended to "inspire" them to understand is absurd. But we CAN assume that they still contain the SPIRITUAL TRUTH that God wished to communicate for our SPIRITUAL EDIFICATION (NOT CARNAL).

So true....and as long as Christians only live by the literal carnal word...they will never "SEE OR EXPERIENCE" the spiritual intent behind those carnal words that Jesus taught us...the spiritual words that give "TRUE LIFE" and "ENTRANCE INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD". The road truly is "NARROW".

[Gideon7620]

Now the last time we spoke of the Hope of Christ’s return, we spoke of modern interpretations and philosophies being erroneous. What we will do now is look at some of the history of the interpretations, going back all the way to about 100 AD. This backlash in time should make it evident of what early saints thought, taught, and experienced and were most likely even taught by earlier saints. There is nothing more accurate than laws of first mention. It is believed by many, history, and tradition, that Dustin Martyr was taught by the Disciple John. However we will not start there. We will start with the most recent of saints to see how they viewed the world scene with regards to the ruturn of CHrist.

[Verna Perry]

Originally Posted by Gideon7620

Gideon said, so it definitely appears you have a doctrine of the Seventh Day Adventist group.

I couldn't tell you anything about SDA's doctrine, as I stated, I am simply a Christian. I've never searched, nor do I care, to know anything about SDA.

Originally Posted by Gideon

My beliefs are much different as I see them in God's word. David asks God to restore the joy of his salvation and fellowship after he fell into sin with Bathsheba. He never lost his salvation only his communion with God and the joy were lost.

David was wicked, he killed his friend and committed adultery with his wife. He was not a righteous man. David did not repent and become a righteous man until after his sin with Bathsheba.
This is his prayer:

Psa 51:1 (To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.)
"Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions."

People who have spiritual gifts and disobey God do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit and are not born again.

If you continue in your sin, you have not truly repented. Repent means to cease from willfull sin altogether. True repentance is to choose to cease from sin completely and forever (knowing that one cannot possibly do so apart from the Spirit of God).

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)...

...Peter was saying that they should repent once and for all. First the full repentance, then the Holy Spirit.

"And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." (Acts 5:32).

Originally Posted by Gideon

John tells us we know we are saved in the present progressive, meaning we know in the present and progressive tense.

John gives us his definition of sin: He states, "Sin is the transgression of the Law." He also states, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin." (1 John 3:9)... as well as in 1 John 3:6, he states, "Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not"...(1 John 3:8)...and, "He that committeth sin is of the devil" (1 John 3:9)

Originally Posted by Gideon

Salvation is not something that can be earned by works of righteousness...

Of course it isn't. There can be no compromise, however, on the doctrine of salvation. In Ezekiel we find that repentance is a one time event, and that one must cease from willfull sin completely and forever in order to "live"...

Originally Posted by Gideon

...but according to his mercy he saved us, Past tense. Once we are saved nothing can break that or take it away, not even growing up in a non Christian home can.

Not according to Scripture.
Ezekiel 18:9 He that hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgements, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them SHALL HE DIE.
Ezekile 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die."

Originally Posted by Gideon

We do not work our way into salvation by good works and keeping his commandments. The commandments are important for the saint to keep, but there in none righteous not one, no one can keep them, neither you nor I. If we think the wrong thought, which we all do every day, we have broken the commandments. If we break one we have broken all commands. We live in a fallen body that sins and we sin daily whether we realize it or not. Clearly the scriptures tell us God gave us the Ten Commandments as a school master to prove to us we needed a Savior that never sinned to impute his righteousness on us for our sins past, present and future. Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound. God forbid. Yes we are to live holly lives and be separated unto God, but none, I repeat none can keep the Ten Commandments, not even after being saved. None can lose salvation ever as you have suggested.

Scripture proves you wrong Gideon, the very Word in which you claim to take literally...once saved always saved is a lie. For God says:

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6:4).

Originally Posted by Gideon

I am not here to debate salvation, regeneration, imputation, sanctification and God's approbation with any. Certainly keeping the Sabbath has nothing to do with salvation as keeping any of the commandments do not have anything to do with salvation. God saves us by his grace not by our works. That is plain and simple in scripture.

I am not debating Gideon, I'm simply stating what God's holy Word clearly states concerning "...the fellowship we have with God, and the seriousness we take in recognizing, keeping, and obeying His commandments and leading..." as you yourself suggested that, "...The fellowship we have with God and the seriousness we take his commmands and leading determine where we may fit in his plan" ...hummmmmm......? I wonder where one "fits" into His plan when they think that they can continue to willfully sin and still claim to be a child of God, when God's Word clearly states differently...?

Originally Posted by Gideon

I am here to edify and inform the saints of the error in the return of Christ in most local, bible believing churches. We are also here to discuss the most likely probability that America is Babylon also. So if you want to argue about salvation; maybe you should kindly do that in another thread. I clearly pointed out my motives when I started and do not care to waste time and energy arguing something with you that is already settle with us in our faith.

That's fine, I do not wish to interrupt your thread... you should first correct your own error in your understanding of God's Word before attempting to correct the error of others.

Originally Posted by Gideon

So I guess the question to ask is you already believe that we have accepted the Mark of the Beast by not worshiping during the Sabbath correct? I contend this to be most inaccurate, as the mark will be a literal marking system and it certainly has not been accepted by people that do not worship on Sunday. Hitler employed the same doctrine as the UN security council may try to do again. So the ideal here is they may kill saints someday for not accepting the mark or RFD chips not for not worshipping on Sunday; they matters come for not accepting the mark or RFD chip. We will get to the mark later, but it is important to know if you believe we have accepted the mark for not worshiping on Sunday.

...I have no idea what you are talking about...if I understand you correctly, you think that I think you are marked with the mark of the beast by not keeping the Sabbath...am I right? If so, no, I do not believe that at all. By you admitting that you do not keep the commandments...and by you admitting that you believe that you can continue in your sins and still consider yourself a child of God...and once saved always saved...you clearly have not repented of your sins...therefore, according to God's Word, you are not a child of God...you are still in your sins, and you will die in them if you do not repent once and for all...you can still turn from your sinfull nature...it is your choice.

Originally Posted by Gideon

With that being ask, we will continue on to The Blessed Hope of the believer and we will demonstrate some history etc of where certain false doctrines came from.

How can you do that if you yourself teach a false doctrine?...but then again...hopefully, as you continue on, you will learn the truth as you study further...I do hope for that to happen for you.

Originally Posted by Gideon

So definately, I will not take time or energy to argue salvation against this doctrine you proclaim. It has nothing to do with this subject matter/ my purpose here is to edify the saints that are saved by the blood of the Lamb, to edify the saints that believe in salvation by grace and not of works, lest any dare boast. None can keep the commands, even after salvation occurs, not even 38 years later. We live in a sinful fallen Body and nature. We all have sinned in Adam, but through Christ we can all be propitiated for.

Originally Posted by Gideon

The heavens declare the Glory of the Lord.

...carry on...good day Gideon.

[Gideon7620]

Gideon said, Verna, all this amounts to this you still have not answered the question with regards to a few areas. I think it only reasonable that you do. Afterall I was curtious to do so for you. Dialogue is two sided, not one.

All this amounts to a works salvation, simply put; this most definately is not a literal verbal, plenary interpretation of scripture. It is you trying to work your way to heaven; none can do that. I do'nt care how hard you work or how self righteous you think yourself to be. You sin everyday, and unless, unless you have Christ as a permanent savior to rid your sins, then there will be no salvation. It is a one time event and not a process as you suggest. Surely, purification is such, but the is only designated to a saved saint whom is growing in the grace and knowlege of God. You are human and subject to errror. A typo is an error or sin, we do not nor will ever have sinless perfection until Christ transforms us at his glorious apppearing. We shall be like him for we shall see him as he is.

Vera said

David was wicked, he killed his friend and committed adultery with his wife. He was not a righteous man. David did not repent and become a righteous man until after his sin with Bathsheba.
This is his prayer:

This is very inacurate, after David's sins; he said restore unto me the Joy of my salvation, not my salvation. He lost fellowship with God and was already saved when he sinned. Can you read the meanings in the words? They say what they mean. Had David not been saved, he would have said, saved me from my sin and give me salvation, but he did not.

Wrong, gotcha, This is the plea of a saved man, that begged God for the restoration of fellowship, after he sinned with Bathsheba and murdered a man. This is not an unsaved man as you claim. That is so clear, it could not be any clearer. If you can not see this, I would be concerned.

snow.

Psa 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; [that] the bones [which] thou hast broken may rejoice.

Psa 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Psa 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me [with thy] free spirit.

Psa 51:13 [Then] will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

Psa 51:14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: [and] my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

David is saved dear, all these verses prove that very clearly. His sin did not unsave him. If it did it would be by works of righteousness, but we know it is only by Grace. Further if it did he would not have cried out OH God of my salvation, and my tongue shall sing of your righteousness not mine, yours. You are singing of your righteousness, not God's. It is not baptism, going to church on Saturdays or going to church at all for that matter or even trying to keep the ten commandments or any ohter works that saves man.. If you think you can keep all tem commandments in one day even you are out or your mind; do you realize what you are saying, the bad thoughts you are thinking about me now are a miserable attempt and failure for any of us to do. It is humanly impossible for any to do that in the flesh or fallen state. Most churches are apostate anyhow, especially the Seventh Day Adventistth. It is the shed blood of Christ and that powerful annointing that does it, not your works..lest you dare boast against God and his words. There is no mercy for where knowlege is. With all that being said, you have proved nothing but the fact that you are in error.


http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False.../deception.htm


You confuse David's confessions for his sins, with the purpose of reestablishing fellowship as a plea for salvation. That is not the case. David as we should confess our faults to God regularly. Noone will reach a sinless perfection, not even David, The Apple of God's eye. He has need as we do to confess our sins in order to maintain fellowship with God. His works do not save him.

This is blasphemous doctrine...It makes of none affect the death of Christ..Hey we have to work to heaven...we can keep the ten commandments. I say, none can do that, not even in one day, much less for a week or a lifetime. This puts the cross of Christ to shame and makes his death of none affect or necessity. Afterall why do we need Jesus if we say we can keep the ten commandments.



[LEFT][SIZE=5]Adventists Teach Salvation by Works![/SIZE]
Here is a quote from Dr. John R. Rice's excellent book, FALSE DOCTRINES (pg. 183), available from the Sword of the Lord (which I highly recommend)...[/LEFT]

[LEFT][SIZE=2]"In article 9 [/SIZE][SIZE=2](of 'What Seventh-Day Adventists Believe')[/SIZE][SIZE=2], it says, 'that those who are truly converted and love God will diligently study, and give heed to, His Word.' And they give eight Scripture references and none of them say anything like that. The simple truth is that people who are converted do not always 'diligently study' the Bible and do not always obey it in many matters. This is a part of the doctrine of salvation by works which they teach, and that one may keep saved by keeping on working."[/SIZE][/LEFT]

Thank God for Dr. Rice's wisdom and uncompromising stand for the truth! The Devil can't deceive us if we shine the light of God's Word upon the darkness. As with most false religions, SDAs talk out of both sides of their mouth. They say one thing here, and then another over there. SDAs will swear on their mother's grave that they believe in salvation by grace through faith in Christ; BUT, then the writings of Ellen G. White, whom they ALL recognize as a prophet inspired by God, contradicts their claims. Here again are the words of Dr. John R. Rice, from his book FALSE DOCTRINES (Pg. 188)...

[SIZE=2]"Mrs. White, the 'prophetess' of Seventh-Day Adventists, is quoted in their book, Answers to Objections, by Francis D. Nichol (published by the Review and Herald Publishing Association, Washington, D.C.), page 402, as saying:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]'Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or to feel that they are saved. This is misleading. Every one should be taught to cherish hope and faith; but even when we give ourselves to Christ and know that He accepts us, we are not beyond the reach of temptation ... Only he who endures the trial will receive the crown of life."[/SIZE]

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6:4).

You have grossly taken this verse out of context, for it refers to people whom the Holy spirit has woohed for salvation, and they reject that wooing, hence they trample the blood of Christ. You claiming you have sinless prefection tramples the blood of Christ as does your claim that one can lose salvation. This is blasphemy and you take God's word out of context.
Quote:


Paul makes that very clear of you in this passage. Are you telling us you are better than Paul, whom struggled with the flesh. You make no sense and bring denial to Paul's inspired words. This is God's truth. I can not understand how people can be so blinded to the truths in scripture and how they choose to take them out of context, incredible. You failed with David as you did here. Now you will fail more with Paul's writings.


What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:13¶Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Return to Top

[Verna Perry]

Originally Posted by Gideon7620

Gideon said, Verna, all this amounts to this you still have not answered the question with regards to a few areas. I think it only reasonable that you do. Afterall I was curtious to do so for you. Dialogue is two sided, not one.

I'm sorry, I must have missed something. I thought I was pretty clear in my response to you. What is it that you say I have not answered?

[Gideon7620]

Gideon said Paul tells us he suffered with sin and the flesh, yet he never loses his salvation. If we could become unsaved as you demonstrate misquoting scripture, Christ died in vain, dear; because no man can live a sinless life but Jesus. You are relying on your works to get you to heaven and they won't. THey will put any straight to hell. By the responses I am getting this must be a seventh day Adventist Forum or something; because there are no Christians here holding sound doctrines as I have seen thus far.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6:4).

You have grossly taken this verse out of context, for it refers to people whom the Holy spirit has woohed for salvation, and they reject that wooing, hence they trample the blood of Christ. You claiming you have sinless prefection tramples the blood of Christ as does your claim that one can lose salvation. This is blasphemy and you take God's word out of context.
Quote:


Paul makes that very clear for us in this passage. Are you telling us you are better than Paul, whom struggled with the flesh. You make no sense and bring denial to Paul's inspired words. This is God's truth. I can not understand how people can be so blinded to the truths in scripture and how they choose to take them out of context, incredible. You failed with David as you did here. Now you will fail more with Paul's writings.


What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.


We are not to sin willfully, but if we do we have an advocate in Jesus, whom washes us from all unrighteousness and restores fellowship with God.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.

What Paul is saying is the commandments condemned him to death; as he could not keep them. Noone can, not even Paul. I gurantee you that you can not keep them if you say you can you lie. Neither could Paul ever keep them in the flesh. We are fallen sinners and we sin everyday. Yet you claim you are so spiritual that you can without sinning. Now remember that is what you rely on for your salvation, your ability to not sin and lose it. Well, I've got knews for you, you just called God's words a lie and have said you have not sin. He that sayeth he hath no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].

Paul was condemned to death, because he could not keep the commands.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:13¶Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. God gave us the commandments so we could see how wretched we really are in his eyes.




Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

We know the commands are spiritual and of God, but we are carnal in the flesh.


Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Paul says, and this is Paul, noone in this day and age can compare to his purity and holiness, btw; he says He can not do what he desires, but he does what he hates, sin. Does that mean he purposely sins? No, God forbid; he just finds it impossible to live a sinless life as you claim you do, and this is Paul speaking.



Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Return to Top


The rest is self explanitory, I won't waist any more time defending myself against your false doctrines, and accusations. If you think you are sinless, hey more power to you. Just remember what John said.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

[Gideon7620]

As in early America, most modern day evangelicals have been taught the Pre-Tribulation Rapture scenario as established fact. Most if not very few have ever had a chance to hear the Post-Tribulation Rapture position expounded. As a matter of fact most pre-tribulation Rapture believers have never even expounded the pre-tribulation heresy. They have neglected their personal responsibility to seek truth and find it in God's word. They have been programmed by mere tradition to believe that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the biblically correct truth concerning the closing dramas of this age.

But are they correct about this early secret Rapture seen nowhere in the Bible?
Is there any sound scriptural proof of this?
Do they have any solid Biblical evidence for it at all? The answers to all these questions are no, no, no. There is nothing in the Bible that even hints to this dogma. It is merely wishful thinking and a fairy tale, supported by a corrupted church or evangelical movement, lost in its historic heretical tradition.

As stated before, this is the pattern modern day evengelicalism has taken and most mainstream churches. Modern day philosophies and prophetic interpretations in modern Christianity have presented a false hope for the world, Christendom, and Judaism. They have presented a hope of deliverance through an escapist mentality. They actually believe Jesus is coming to fly them away to escape all the horrors that will soon come upon this world: Such as the New World Order, The Mark of the Beat (RFD or microchip implantations), and even martyrdom for refusal to receive the mark or chip. All these areas they falsely claim to escape are recorded in scripture as a true experience the church will witness and be subject to. Nowhere in scripture do we see that God will pull the church out before Satan commits these atrocities against the church. The scriptures tell us the contrary. None can deny the prophetic order of events that are already transpiring and being fulfilled. As believers and interpreters of the Word of God, we already see many prophecies being fulfilled. With that being said, we should expect the remainder to be fulfilled and our presence must be here in order to see those remainders come to pass. Yet the majority of Christians have chose to blindly follow blind leaders that teach contrary to what is recorded in scripture. The excuse they give for the contradiction is dispensational, or their, the ruling Sheppard’s single ability to interpret God’s Word, while excluding the lay people from having that ability. In an effort to do this, they twist the Holy Bible to say something it clearly does not. This is a mere modern form of Papal rule as seen in ancient days, when the church or papacy was to be the sole interpreter of God’s Word. They have chosen to dress it up a bit in modern times by referring to it as dispensational or dispensationalism.



Church History Proves a Late Post-Tribulation Rapture

Here in this segment we will start with modern day examples and move on to more ancient ones. We will proceed in reverse chronological order. We will save the best for the last as the old saying goes.

As believers we must be able to decipher the difference between tribulation, persecution, and the wrath of God. We are told in I Thessalonians Chapter 5, Verse 9 says, For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Pre-tribers take this verse and interpret it as saying; God hath not appointed you to tribulation and persecution, brought on by Satan. He has appointed you to obtain salvation, by a secret rapture, which no one knows about. Now does that verse really say that? No, of course not, but rather, they should interpret this, God has not appointed you to the fires of hell but to obtain salvation through the blood of Christ. God has not appointed you to the wrath he will pour out on this world at the end of the Great Tribulation, but to obtain, divine deliverance as he did with the children of Israel in Egypt, during the Exodus. As saints we will not be immune to the persecutions and tribulations that Satan will pour out on the saints. We will however be immune to the wrath God will pour out on the unsaved, Mathew 24:15-21, Daniel 11:31, Daniel 9:25-27, Mark 13:1-37, Revelation 6:1-17, God’s Wrath on the unsaved is seen in Revelation 8:1-13. , Revelation 13, Revelation 15:1, 2, Revelation 20:4-6. Now that we have a reasonable idea of the differences between God’s wrath, and Satan's persecution, and tribulation we can go on to the first early saint in reverse chronological order.

Corrie Ten Boom is a survivor of Hitler's Holocaust. CORRIE TEN BOOM IN THIS LETTER BELOW COMMENTS ON THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE VIEW WHICH IS POPULAR TODAY. AND SHE RELAYS A WORD OF WARNING TO US IN THE WEST FROM THE SUFFERING YET VICTORIOUS UNDERGROUND CHURCH IN CHINA. SHE EXHORTS US TO PREPARE OURSELVES SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST, IN HIS HOLY WORD, AND BY HIS HOLY SPIRIT FOR THE COMING TRIALS OF OUR FAITH. SHE TELLS OF THE CHINESE CHURCH IN A FORMER TIME BEING MISINFORMED, UNWARNED, AND ILL-PREPARED FOR THE PERSECUTIONS THAT BEGAN IN 1949 UNDER MAO TSE TUNG'S RED GUARDS. IN THIS LETTER CORRIE ALSO WARNS THAT CHRISTIANS IN THE WEST TODAY ARE ALSO IN DANGER OF FALLING INTO A SIMILAR DISASTER BORN OF PASTORAL NEGLECT AND UNPREPAREDNESS. CORRIE, IN CLASSIC DUTCH DIRECTNESS, PLAINLY STATES THAT THOSE WHO TEACH A PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE ARE AMONG THE FALSE TEACHERS JESUS WARNED US ABOUT. (-Mat.24:4-5) Many shall say here is Christ or there, believe them not. Christ in his entirety is found in Word of God. There are no gimmicks or secret codes or traditions to follow.

BTW, The Mark of the Beast is not someone not going to church on Sunday. Seventh Day Adventist claim, since most christian go to church on Sunday, that they have taken the mark of the beast. Can I ask a question, does going to church on Sunday prevent any from buying or selling? That should answer your question, no, absolutely not. Going to church on Sunday has nothing to do with The Mark of the Beast.

Corrie Ten Boom a Christian girl in Holland during World War II lived there at that time the German Nazis controlled Europe. She, her sister, and father were captured by the Germans. Their crime was sheltering Jews. For this they were sent to the camps. Only Corrie survived. Corrie Ten Boom was a woman of faith and commitment to her Jesus. She knows of God's provision during the inevitable trials of our faith. This incredible woman of God is a lone voice speaking out for scriptural truth in the present eschatological wilderness. She has sounded a trumpet warning to American and western Christians. She has spoken out very specifically about the popular Pre-Tribulation Rapture teaching abroad today. Here is Corrie Ten Boom's warning to the American church.


Here is part of it; THIS IS AN EXTREMELY SERIOUS BLOOD COVENANT ISSUE. WE MUST DISCARD ALL OUR PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS AND FANCIES. LET US SEARCH THE HOLY SCRIPTURES WITH ALL DILIGENCE IN TRUE BEREAN FAITHFULNESS. NOWHWERE IN SCRIPTURE SHALL WE FIND ONE SINGLE VERSE TO PROVE THAT WESTERN CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS ARE "OUTTA HERE" BEFORE THE RESURRECTION AT THE END OF THIS AGE. HOLY HISTORY STILL AWAITS THE "FINAL WITNESS" OF THE SAINTS. THE TRUE CHRISTIAN CHURCH WILL PLAY THIS CRUCIAL ROLE IN THE END-TIME DRAMA. THE LATTER DAYS WILL SEE THE SAINTS GO UP ONTO THE STAGE OF HISTORY. BUT SAD TO REPORT, OUR PRESENT DAY LUKEWARM COMPROMISED LAODICEAN CHURCH IS SILENT ABOUT THIS. THE RELIGIOUS HIERARCHIES DO NOT SEEM TO THINK THAT SHARING THIS IMPORTANT INFORMATION FROM BIBLE PROPHECY IS IMPORTANT. BUT MESSIAH'S RETURN IS AN ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY. HE HAS GIVEN US HIS WORD ON THE MATTER. AND CHRISTIANS WHO HOLD A BIBLICAL WORLD VIEW ARE PAYING ATTENTION AND TAKING THE INITIATIVE THEMSELVES. THEY ARE PREPARING THEIR HEARTS.

SO IN THE MAINSTREAM CHURCHES THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST IS A NEGLECTED AND ALMOST FORGOTTEN TRUTH. "RELIGI-BUSINESS" COMES FIRST FOR THEM IT SEEMS. AND SO THESE WEIGHTIER MATTERS OF CHRISTIAN MINISTRY ARE BEING SORELY NEGLECTED. CHURCHMEN ARE FAILING TO WARN AND PREPARE COMFORTABLE WESTERN CHRISTIANS TO TAKE UP THEIR CROSS. VERY FEW CHRISTIANS ARE EVEN AWARE THAT AT SOME FUTURE TIME, (PROBABLY IN THEIR LIFETIME), THE NATIONAL FLAGS WILL COME DOWN AND THIS WORLD WILL ENTER INTO A NEW WORLD ORDER. AND JUST AS IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN IN THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, THE HISTORY OF THIS PRESENT AGE WILL ENTER INTO ITS FINAL PHASE. JESUS SAID THAT HIS FOLLOWERS WOULD BE CALLED UPON TO TAKE THEIR STAND BEFORE KINGS AND RULERS. BUT TODAY'S OVER-INDULGED WESTERN CHRISTIANS HAVE NEVER CONSIDERED THAT THE PEOPLE JESUS HAS SPOKEN ABOUT MIGHT BE THEM.

Gideon7620 said, now in the past we have been lied to, preached to, and told that Christ can come anytime and we should be prepared. This preparation involves church membership to false doctrine, working hard to make the church numbers grow, and giving all you can to the church, and singing God bless America. After all, we must be prepared; as they claim Jesus will come at any moment. So you better prepare and work for the church and stand behind the country. Now this preparation seems to lack preparation.

On the other hand the post- trib view is as such; no, Jesus cannot come at any moment, yet, at least for a while, until certain things are fulfilled. First we must experience all the prophecies first, the wars, rumors of wars, famines, pestilences, plagues, and a new world order. We further must witness the rebuilding of the wall and temple, the abomination that make desolate, the persecution and murders of many saints worldwide (including and spawning from America or the Harlot Babylon), God's divine deliverances and his plagues he will pour out on the antichrist and the unsaved. Then will the sky be darkened; probably resulting from Hydrogen bombs and warfare. Then and only then, after all the signs have been fulfilled, will the son of man return in the clouds of Heaven, having great Glory and parosia, epiphany, outshining, brilliant power, like the sun. Now how could that ever be a secret hidden coming? Yet, that is how the scriptures describe it everywhere; there is no secret, mystery or hiddeness about it at all. For this reason he shall destroy Satan with the brightness and power of His return. Jesus’ glory is too great to be hidden or kept secret in a mysterious hidden return. Nowhere do we see or read he will not be seen in his return. In Revelation 1 we are told every eye shall see him. That must be a very glorious sight for all to see. In the end of his great commission we are told in like manner as you have seen him go so shall he return, in clouds and great glory, parosia, epiphany?

LQQk at me, as Jack Van Impe would say, surely these false prophets want you to believe Jesus is coming anytime. They are preparing the saints for an unexpected slaughter by Babylon, America. We will be here for the slaughter, but they want you to think, Jesus would never do that to his bride. Well he has done it for 2,000 years and what makes you think matters will suddenly change. They also want you to do all you can to for Jesus as he could come at anytime, so give me more money. Now you do not want Jesus to be upset if you do not give all you can. Give me more; he could come right now, today. That is a lie of the devil as much prophecy must be fulfilled yet. The pre-tribulation rapture VIEW has been used by churches to extort more money and resources from people over the ages. Jesus can come anytime so give more of your time, money and energy to the pastor and church. Forget about all the other important matters. Do not dare question the pastor on this matter; He is a man of God and knows all, in spite of what you read and interpret in the Bible. Only great men of wisdom can figure out the simple complexity of the return of Christ. Reminds me of the Wizard of Ozz, as Dorothy and all are told by the Ozz man, "Hey don't look behind that curtain. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. I am the great Ozz." Church setting and its hierarchy is all too comparable and similar.

Now we can jump back in History and see many saints persecuted and martyred for their faith in Jesus. These well known saints also clung to a biblical interpretation of post tribulation rapture. However, when surrounded by the pressure of piers in American evangelicalism, one has the tendency to go with the crowd, a monkey see monkey do mentality. We see this largely also in the Roman Catholic Church. No Roman Catholic dare question the authority and qualification of the Pope, Bishops or Priests. Though as true believers in God's word and as considering it our only authority for righteous judgment and Christian living we know they are wrong. As a bishop, Sheppard, pastor, and overseer must first be married, and the husband of one wife, not one practicing celibacy and molesting little altar boys. There are other qualifications also, as we know. Catholics are unwilling to see this and choose peer pressure and cultism rather than God’s word. This monkey see and do mentality is carried on to doctrinal interpretation amongst Protestants with regard to eschatology. Most believe in the pre-tribulation fallacy because their pastor does, as his daddy, the Christian College he went to does also, and his pastor does as well. Unfortunately, they have never taken a close look at it in scripture to easily prove otherwise as we will learn here later.

Carl F. Keil (AD 1807-1888) " … the persecution of the last enemy Antichrist against the Church of the Lord ... (Biblical Commentary, YXMV, p. 503)15

Charles Hodge (AD 1797-1878) "...the fate of his Church here on earth ... is the burden of the Apocalypse" (Systematic Theology, III, p. 827)14

Morgan Edwards (AD 1722-1795) "[Antichrist] has hitherto assumed no higher title than 'the vicar general of Christ on earth'..."(Two Academical Exercises etc., p. 20)13


Roger Williams (AD 1603-1683) "Antichrist ... hath his prisons, to keep Christ Jesus and his members fast " (The Bloody Tenent etc., p. 153)12


John Knox (AD 1515-1572) “the great love of God towards his Church, whom he pleased to forewarne of dangers to come ... to wit, The man of sin, The Antichrist... " (The Historie of the Reformation etc., 1, p. 76)11

Martin Luther (AD 1483-1546) "[The book of Revelation] is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future, and especially of tribulations and disasters for the Church.... " (Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481)10


Roger Bacon (AD 1214-1274) " … future perils [for the Church] in the times of Antichrist... " (Opus Majus II, p. 634)9


Pseudo-Ephraem (perhaps 400 or 600 A.D.) was a man who "borrowed" materials from the real Ephraem of Syria, ---and some pre-tribulationists have taken several sentences out of context, in an attempt to say that there was an early date for the pre-tribulation rapture teaching. The main two sentences of Pseudo-Ephraem which are quoted, state : "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare oursleves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion which overwhelms all the world? ... For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they ever see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." ---Note, that these quoted sentences do not mention a coming of the Lord, or a resurrection of the dead or a glorification (translation) or a heavenly destination of believers.

Victorinus (AD 269-271) "He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles... The Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, ... three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church." (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 20:1-3) 6



Cyprian (200 to 260 A.D.) writes, "Nor let any of you, beloved brethren, be terrified by the fear of future persecution, by the coming of the threatening Antichrist" (Epistle 55,7). And we do well to take Cyprian's advice, since the Lord's grace is sufficient for true believers to be victorious in any situation.

Tertullian (150 to 220 A.D.) attached the rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4, to the start of Christ's millennial kingdom on earth. Tertullian said the tribulation situation will be such "that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God" (On the Resurrection of the Flesh xxv).

Irenaeus (130 to 200 A.D.) who said he held the actual apostles' teaching, wrote, "they [the ten kings of Rev. 17:1-13] shall ...give their kingdom to the beast [Antichrist], and put the Church to flight" (Against Heresies V, 26, 1). Irenaeus also said : "but he [John] indicates the number of the name [666 of Antichrist] now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is" ( Against Heresies V, 30, 4).

Didache (AD 100) "then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, ...but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven." (Didache - Chapter 16)1

Justin Martyr (AD 100-168) "Two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in wh


Justin Martyr (100 to 167 A.D.) lived near the time of the apostle John (died 100 A.D.); Justin taught the resurrection and rapture of believers would occur at the beginning of the millennium (Christ's 1000-year reign, which starts just after the Second Coming). Justin also wrote, "The man of apostasy [Antichrist] ...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on earth against us the Christians" (Trypho cx).

Now, if Justin Martyr was all the proof we had along with scripture I would certainly believe in post tribulation rapture or premellinial rapture. The Bible alone should convince us, but thanks are to God we have the testimony of many great Christian men to help with that process. Historically, it is easy to prove there was no such thing as a pre tribulation rapture thought even. There is nothing purer than the laws of first mention. We see clearly that early saints followed and practiced the doctrines and teachings of the apostles, even unto death.

Today we want big screen TV, Pepsi, beer, fast food, and a football game. With this Western Christians are content. We have become attached to and dependent on the materialism of Babylon, and most can not imagine Christ would ever let Satan persecute them.