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Hold on. You're saying that the big reason the book of Enoch was not included in the canon was because "Christian Europe" was cut off from "Christian Ethiopia" by Muslim territory? Am I understanding you correctly?
The Council of Nicaea was in the year 325 in what is now Turkey. Mohammed, the founder of Islam, wasn't even born until around 570. So how could Muslims have "cut off" Christian Europe from Christian Africa over 200 years before Islam was founded?
The canonization of the Christian Bible had a lot of considerations, but the Ethiopian Church being cut off from Europe (which it wasn't in 325) and possessing "lost" or "secret" books had nothing to do with it.
By 325 the Roman Empire was certainly starting to have lots of problems, but the churches of Africa were not "cut off" from Europe.
St. Paul quoted the Greek poet Aratus. Doesn't make the poems of Aratus canon.
You should do a deeper study of the pseudopygraphas...
No, you are misunderstanding what was said. And your knowledge of history is a bit lacking. Middle-age Europeans were excluded from Muslim lands, although there was actually quite a bit of traffic between Europe and the middle east, most of the tribal leaders were devoutly Muslim, and most Christians interested in such things tended to wear their religion on their sleeves, so they were not particularly welcome.
The Ethiopian Jews were isolated by the Romans. At the time of the diaspora the Jews were scattered across the world. Once Constantine ordered a canon produced and the "Official Church" divided into the three churches, the Jewish sects became even more isolated from each other and mainstream society. The wars between the official churches and the various non-sanctioned believers (such as the Gnostics) extended for several hundred years during which time Jews in general and Ethiopian Jews in particular faded into irrelevancy.
By and large, it was not Christians in general that the Muslims objected to, but European Christians. The Crusades did a lot of damage to their credibility. the Orthodox Christian was generally accepted by the Muslims due to the Orthodox monks offering Mohamed sanctuary at a time when he was being pursued by enemies.
For the most part, though, Christians of all denominations did not consider Jews to be anything but killers of Jesus. Seeking out a sect 2000 miles away was not a biggie on their agenda.....it was far more important to wage war in the name of the Prince of Peace.
Did you also know that the Jews had a Golden age where they were at peace with the Muslims and the Muslims referred to the Jews as the people of the Book?...
There are not to many inaccuracies in the pseudopygraphas...they line up but also fill in gaps...they kind of have the style of writing of the first five books of the old testament...
Whether the Book of Enoch should be canon, or not, is likely to be an ongoing arguement for forever. I don't think we're going to see a new Bible that includes the "Book of Enoch" anytime soon...
However, anyone that wants to include it as a valid inspired work can simply download it off the internet and read it at their leisure...
That said, my question would be this: how do we know whether the Book of Enoch that is available on the internet is the same as the one referred to in the NT? How do we know it hasn't been changed, or edited, over the centuries? For that matter, how do we even know whether or not someone has simply dreamed up a new Book of Enoch, and is alleging that it is the original?
Do you A, say "well, the Epistle of Jude quotes it, so it must be cannon!" and except it and go get a copy (at any Barnes and Noble under the Bible apocrypha section) and crazy glue it in the OT. Or, do you say B, "well, if the Epistle of Jude quotes a non-canon book, than the Epistle of Jude can't be canon!" and exacto knife it out of the NT?
Sorry...but how could you not do one or the other?
* by "Nicene Bible" I mean the protestant and caholic versions of the bible and those that except the Nicene creed.
Hello victorianpunk....I say that is very interesting! I think I also say, run and get a copy of it and read it!I will!...Love.[/quote]
Good Girl...If you would like i will email you a copy in PDF...and also...1 & 2 Adam and Eve...
Enoch is the Son of Adam who was born for righteousness...and God took him, and brought him before His face into eternity, and clothed him in the garments of His Glory, and put a fair mitre upon his head, and gave him a new name that no man knew...but now we do: Jesus Christ, and he is the Son of Adam. Enoch the old man...Jesus Christ the new man. When God took Enoch, the old man, He raised him from those whose bodies, upon dying, would be corrupted (decay, rot, worms, etc...). When God raised Jesus, the new man, He raised him from those whose bodies, upon dying, would also be corrupted...thus the scripture says, "But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption." Acts 13:37 KJV. Pray Friend, that you may be accounted worthy to stand in the presence of the Son of Adam, who also is Lord of the Sabbath, having authority to forgive sins. This Pre-Trib rapture you keep referring to is a doctrinal presupposition of men which remains absolutely impossible to validate as true based solely upon the plain text of scripture, even after nearly 200 yrs. since it's invention as a doctrine that has the appearance of truth, but in scriptural fact is a lie. Where do you think you will be in "the time of Jacob's trouble" ? Are you afraid to suffer for the Word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ ? There is no pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib rapture...there is only the resurrection of the dead...some to everlasting life...the rest to everlasting shame, and contempt. The destruction of those souls consigned to the lake of fire lasts only for the twinkling of an eye...it is the effect of this destruction which is eternal. Thus,they shall be remembered no more. Nevertheless, God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to the saving knowledge of His only acquired Son, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. You would do well to imposing your self preserving attitude upon others genuinely desirous of the truth.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. ...Christ tasted death...???
Friend... while your posts are not complete nonsense, or completely un-Biblical, they leave much to be scripturally desired. Your approach to the plain text of scripture has been tainted by your proverbial tools of the hermeneutic trade. That Enoch saw the Son of man with the Ancient of Days is irrefutable...that The Name of this Son of man was hidden with God is immutable...when Enoch asked, "Who is that one with the Ancient of Days ?"...the angels that were with Enoch told him that that "one" is the Son of man who was born for righteousness...then later they confessed to Enoch that he is the Son of man who was born for righteousness. God in the Son of Adam reconciling us to Himself is not a matter for debate... we never said Enoch is come in the flesh of the New creation human being to be the Kinsman/Redeemer for the Adam race; however, you made the inference. Besides, if that were true, then Enoch would have come in his own name. But what says the scripture: "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." (John) 5:43 KJV. What name do you suppose the Son of Adam had before he was acquired, appointed, sanctified, and sent in our Father's Name to finish the work he was commissioned to fulfill ? The truth is you in the face,, but owing to pride, envy, and lust, you find it hard to believe.
Hi Richard 1965...Since it is "appointed unto men once to die, and then the judgment" (Hebrews (9:27)...what death do you suppose God was pleased to have Enoch, the seventh from Adam die ? ...there's only one scriptural answer...
I found some very convincing arguments why the book of Enoch cannot be canonical, emphasis mine
Quote:
1 Enoch is a book full of "doctrines of demons" (1Tm4:1) and is
dedicated to satan and his demons. Furthermore, I seriously doubt it was
written by anybody during Enoch's time; Judas' quote, notwithstanding
(Ju1:14-15); which will be addressed near the end.
I realize that there are theories as to the book's origins. I don't know
about them, nor do I have time to research the matter. The book speaks
for itself. Just as most cults and other teachers of false doctrine can
be ascertained usually within a few minutes of browsing their materials,
without the need to dig deeply, thus is also the case with this book. My
reading was on-the-surface, and I found plenty, without needing to dig
deeply into the "depths of satan". (Rev2:24)
To keep this simple, let's observe the things I notated as I read, in
order, and then I'll make a few closing remarks. These examples are
representative of what is in the book. It is -full- of things just like
what we will observe here:
Section I
1:5 It names "Mt Sinai". Let's remember that Enoch lived before the
flood, and was "translated" (Heb11:5) about 700 years before the
flood. Most of earth's current geological features came about
because of the flood. Thus, did Sinai even exist before the
flood?
2:3 Mentions "summer and winter". The seasons did not come to
be until after the flood. (Gen8:22)
2:3 Speaks of "rain". Again, before the flood, it did not rain, but
a "mist" watered the earth. (Gen2:5-6)
4:1 Another mention of "summer"
6:6 Names "Mt Hermon". For the same reasons as Sinai (above); did it
yet exist during Enoch's time? Thus, the notion that it was not
written by Enoch, but by people after the flood.
10:20 God telling angels (Michael) to cleanse the earth from sin...not
Jesus? It is "..the blood of Jesus Christ His Son" that
"cleanses us from every sin." (1Jn1:7)
10:21 With this cleansing the angels effect...men will be "righteous".
The Bible says that righteousness comes from God through Christ.
(2Cor5:21) and it is the "righteousness of God" (Rom3:22); not
angels. Angels are "ministers". (Heb1:7,14)
13:4 The demons ask Enoch to intercede for them. Since when? If
anything, Paul informs us that the saints will "judge" the
angels (demons are fallen angels). (1Cor6:3)
13:7 Mentions the "land of Dan". Israel did not yet exist.
13:10 Enoch reprimands the angels. Judas1:8-10 speaks of this. It
would seem that this passage provides the basis for those Judas
condemns, who "speak evil of dignitaries"; and gives the
example how Michael, even, would not rebuke satan, but says,
"The Lord rebuke you". (Ju1:9) Since Enoch "walked with God"
it seems highly unlikely he would have done this.
Section II
39:1 Holy children mixing seed with the children of men. I don't
quite have an answer to this one, because men become "holy"
through faith in Christ. And if there are "holy" ones, and
sinners, the holy ones are not to be "unequally yoked" with
unbelievers. (2Cor6:14) The place where Scripture speaks of
the mixing of seed with humanity is in Gen6:1-2, and that was
a bad thing, part of the corruption, for which reason God
destroyed the world with the flood. The only other similar
kind of passage in Scripture is Dan2:43; and there, too, the
context of end events is NOT 'good'.
67:2 Angels make a "wooden" something-or-other (missing word)...to
"preserve seed" And yet, Scripture is quite clear, that -NOAH-
built the ark at God's command. (Gen6:14~)
Note: Throughout the entire book, the emphasis is on 'angels' and
'spirits'. Angels do things, give commands, and are listed and
named. The kind of recognition given to great men, by listing
and recording names. Not very much at all about God. It's as if
God is somehow 'incidental'...but the main activity is being
done by angels. I suspect, if a person were to study the book
more in-depth (which I will not do), one would find the seeds
of how most pagans, catholics, and other liturgically-based
beliefs view angels. Setting them up to be worshiped. The book
has the feel of a document intended to 'teach' people about
things not really intended for man at this time: "..worship of
angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen.."
(Col2:18)
Section III
This section seems to plant the seeds for astrology.
There is a lot of mention of "portals" where the sun and moon
rise and set throughout the seasons. As I read, I found it
quite easy to visualize Stonehenge and other such structures
that exist around the world; how these "portals" could easily
have been the 'openings' between those stone pillars. I don't
know if there is any basis to this, but it was easy to see a
potential parallel there.
72:3 Speaks of how the sun rises and sets...not earth rotating?
72:5 At night, the sun returns through the north to get back to the
east
72:5 Sun riding chariot... how pagan is that?!
72:37 Proclaims the sun and moon to be equal in size. Scripture would
not proclaim such a scientific error.
77:1 South where Most High will descend...Christ comes "east to west"
"For as the lightning comes out of the east and flashes to the
west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." (Mt24:27)
80:1 All the things about the universe, planets (Enoch is even
supposedly whisked off to see the very 'edge' of the universe);
and all this is being taught to him by the angel Uriel. Seems
somehow reminiscent of Mormon (the name of a demon) teaching:
that Adam and Eve traversed to the moon and back.
82:13 Angels have names as "leaders" of the sun/moon/stars. The angels
supposedly are the originators of all the stars, are responsible
for them in their orbits and existence; and are the basis for
regular festivities (82:9) Sounds a lot like the beginings of
astrology and the worship of the "host of the heavens" (De4:19,
2Ki17:16, 21:3,5, etc) Whereas Scripture tells us that the
universe was created by God's "fingers" and that He
"established" them. (Ps8:3) And He set them for "signs and
seasons". (Gen1:14)
Section IV
83:10 Sun is given personality..."him". Seeds of sun-worship; as
god's are assumed to have 'personalities'.
Section V
92:1 Claims that Enoch "indeed" wrote the book.
100:10 Claims that God "inquires of the angels" as to one's deeds. It
is Jesus Christ who knows humanity to the "division of soul and
spirit and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the
heart." (Heb4:12) Why does God need angels to inform Him? God
"..knows the secrets of the heart.." (Ps44:21) "O Jehovah, You
have searched me and known me. You know my sitting down and my
rising up; You understand my thoughts afar off. You have sifted
through my way of life and my lying down, and are familiar with
all my ways. For there is not a word on my tongue, but behold,
O Jehovah, You know it altogether." (~Ps139:1-4)
104:1 Says that angels remember one's good before God. It is Believers
who will judge angels (1Cor6:3); not the other way around.
106:1~~ Noah born a super-natural being...
106:2 eyes glowed with sun-like brilliance from birth...speaking from
the womb... Just the same way pagan demonic entities are
portrayed. When a person is supposedly 'possessed', others know
it because their eyes glow, and they speak with a different kind
of voice.
106:6 Claims Noah was not conceived from human seed...but from angels.
Directly contradicting Scripture which proclaims, "These are the
generations of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his
generation. Noah walked with God." (Gen6:9)
106:8 Necromancy: communicating with the departed. Methuselah
contacts Enoch after his translation on behalf of Lamech.
Enoch couldn't have written it: It contains information that was only
known, or in existence, -AFTER- the flood. Enoch was raptured 700 years
before the flood. And furthermore, with all these doctrines of demons
that it contains, such a man who "walked with God" (Gen5:22,24) would
have had no part with demons in the manner suggested in this book.
I found some very convincing arguments why the book of Enoch cannot be canonical, emphasis mine
That is not true debate, and is a lazy way to spread untruths about a subject you admit you know nothing about, not being willing to research for yourself to "prove whether these things be so".
Mt Sinai is one of the sacred mountains of the earth, and Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam, told that the Son of Man would descend there, in his prophecy.
Enoch is written pre-flood, for all the nations tribes, of the world to read, and is about the Son of Man in heaven, who was "the Wisdom of God, in mystery hidden, by God, for our glory, before the ages".
Only Enoch saw Him as God, the Word, with God, kept secret, until His revealing, who was God, hidden in mystery, the Wisdom of God, to be revealed in these last days, for our glory,as Paul acknowledged that the Apostles and apostles preached, in 1 Cor 2:7 in the literal Greek. Paul got this from Enoch, about Jesus Christ as the Son of Man in heaven, the "Wisdom hidden".
Rev 11:19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the Ark of his Covenant: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
And anyone who reads the Living Oracles given through Moses knows that Moses made copies of things in heaven, only, after their patterns, and that the Ark of the covenant is in heaven which types the New Man, and the Ark is a wooden box, covered with gold [A "Chrysalis" for the redeemed spirits of the born again, to be hidden with Christ, in heaven, to be kept there for the day of their physical metamorphosis [dissolved and reformed in the elements of the physical body], of the old man elements, into the image of the New Man.
Believers are hidden in Christ, with God, in heaven, after being born again in Christ; and the Ark in heaven types our Hiding Place, where we are "kept secret' in Christ, with God, for the day of the "manifesting of the sons of God", as Paul wrote of.
Anyone who is under the Everlasting Covenant of the blood shed and accepted, once, for all, on the True Mercy Seat [the body of Christ] is "in" the true Ark of God, in heaven.
The wooden Ark, typing the redeemed joined to Christ, is plated with gold, and crowned with a golden crown, and covered by the Mercy Seat. Christ is the Head of the New Man, and is the cover of those born again in Christ. We are His "pupas' hidden in the Ark there, whch is typed as our Chysalis, where we are awaiting the change, when we come forth, elementally changed, into His glorious New Man image.
Before the flood, we read, in a fragment of Noah included in the Book of Enoch, that the angels in heaven built an Ark in heaven, a wooden box. That Ark was shown to Moses, seen and patterned by Moses, as a Living Oracle. Moses Ark is a Teaching about how the born agian in Christ are become members of His One Body, and get the Glory.
Enoch wrote of the Revelation of the Son of Man in heaven, in whose name [the secret name, until its revealing -and that name is Israel, the New Man name of God come in flesh] the elect [the redeemed/born again]" are saved.
Enoch went to dwell in Mount Eden/Mount Zion of the heavens, in his translated to the image of the New Man body: born of Christ, before Christ, the Living Spirit, was come in flesh.
Enoch is "firstborn seed of Christ", to fulfill the biblical law of the barren widow marrying the Kinsman and the first son raised in the dead husband's name, so that the inheritance is not lost! The inheritance is earth, given to Adam and ben Adam. Christ is not an Adam nor a ben Adam, but He is the Israel Ish, in the created body of flesh made as only brother to Adam, the dead son of God [Luke 3:38], who marries the Widow -the Ishyah/Mount Zion.
Enoch did not die, but was translated to the New Man body made for the Glory. His dwelling is in Mount Eden/Zion from which Adam got cast out of, at the fall. Before the flood, that Mount was seen, on "the breadth of the earth". It is still there, but not seen since Babel's rebellion. It will be seen again in the millennial reign.
Moses and Elijah are in Moutn Eden/Mount Zion of the heavenly realm, and Jesus spoke with Moses and Eliijah on the Mount Zion/Mount Hermon of Israel's northern border, when He was transfigured before them and they saw His Glory. That is what Methusaleh did when he ran to call on Enoch from the gates of Mount Eden, where Enoch was dwelling with the angels/Watchers, to ask why Noah was born so different, because Lamech was afraid that he was not his child, and that his wife had fornicated ith the fallen watchers. Enoch assured Methusaleh, and Methusaleh assured Lamech, that Noah was indeed his own seed. -your site lies, and you should be ashamed for pasting such lies.
So see, your pasting great lies against Enoch from an unbelievers site are all easily refuted by one who reads and searches to "see if these things be so".
Also, pasting large amounts from other sites is against the rules of this forum. Enoch is not copyrighted, as the Bible is not, but on this forum, they consider all other sites as copyrighted material.
Adam is the first "Ish" for Zion, the Church/heavenly City of God. Adam died, and Zion, personified as the Woman, in Scripture, , the "Ishyah" became a widow, bereft of sons of God for the Glory to indwell. Malachi 2:15 states Adam was made one spirit, and male and female [Genesis 5:2], for God to get sons [of the human being kind]. Eve, the ishyah taken from the ish, was the mother of the living seed who were created in the loins of the male Adam, to come forth as sons of God for the Glory to indwell. the seed died in Adam. Zion was bereft of sons.
-Mount Zion of the heavenlies is the One Church, and is personified as a Woman, the "barren widow", who is the true "Church".
Last edited by yeshuasavedme; 06-19-2010 at 05:46 AM..
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..I say that is very interesting! I think I also say, run and get a copy of it and read it! I will! 
...Love.[/quote]
imposing your self preserving attitude upon others genuinely desirous of the truth.
you in the face,, but owing to pride, envy, and lust, you find it hard to believe.
