Mass Rapture doesn't happen (not looking for preterist mindset)
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You're asking me how to climb a mountain, but in reviewing some posts written by you, it would require to start at the begining. I simply just can't suggest a scripture that tells you how to get a doctrinal point when the foundation of the knowledge that you where instructed in begins incorrectly.
However...... I would suggest to begin would be first to take off the glasses of millennialism....then it would be easier to read the scripture that teaches such.
And no, I'm not preterist.
Parable of the 10 virgins says differently. Some are left behind.
Only those that have their lamps Full are received by Christ. Oil is symbolic of the Spirit.
You're asking me how to climb a mountain, but in reviewing some posts written by you, it would require to start at the begining. I simply just can't suggest a scripture that tells you how to get a doctrinal point when the foundation of the knowledge that you where instructed in begins incorrectly.
However...... I would suggest to begin would be first to take off the glasses of millennialism....then it would be easier to read the scripture that teaches such.
And no, I'm not preterist.
I realize (for several reasons) what I suggested was a tall order, but in light of our conversation I will reply that I do not rely on "millennialism", "dispensationalism" or any other man made "doctrine". (And, I know anyone who disagrees with me concerning my "beliefs" will disagree with that statement as well.)
I rely totally on the scripture, ( the written, plain text reading of The Word ) and understand and accept that anything "discerned" by me, from the perspective of the rest of the church is considered an "interpretation" by all others. This is in the face of the scriptures declaration of itself, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that there is no private interpretation possible. We only understand the message being conveyed or we do not.
Each of us believes our own understanding to be correct, or at least close. I am no different. However, on this subject, I believe the Scripture to be quite clear.
Jesus speaks of an "escape" from the time period he calls "great tribulation". But the word "escape" actually appears in a phrase in Luke 21:36. It lays out conditions necessary to which we are to comply, in order to be "accounted worthy" to participate in that escape. We are not WORTHY, but the Lord (God) will "account us worthy" under the compliance of obedience.
Luke 21:36 Watch (be ready, anticipate) ye therefore, and pray always, (remain in fellowship) "that" ye may beaccounted worthy to escapeall these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Yes, there is an "escape", if we are to believe the words of Jesus. But there are Conditions to be met in order to be included in the escape, if we are to believe and accept the warning as well.
I'll take Jesus at his word and warning, thank you.
I was forced from age 5 to watch this movie every New Years eve... the song says..children die.. I wish we'd all been ready...
Made me so frightened that I would literally check my parents bed every night to make sure the rapture hadn't happened. (Little did I know that my parents were probably going to be left behind as well as most of the church members LOL according to rapture doctrine!)
It's all fiction, made up garbage meant to scare people (as children) into belief in Christian myths...
Sad sad sad ...
I have no fear now. I know the truth and the truth has set me free... no more bondage to rapture type doctrines of fear.
I was forced from age 5 to watch this movie every New Years eve... the song says..children die.. I wish we'd all been ready...
Made me so frightened that I would literally check my parents bed every night to make sure the rapture hadn't happened. (Little did I know that my parents were probably going to be left behind as well as most of the church members LOL according to rapture doctrine!)
It's all fiction, made up garbage meant to scare people (as children) into belief in Christian myths...
Sad sad sad ...
I have no fear now. I know the truth and the truth has set me free... no more bondage to rapture type doctrines of fear.
Love knows no fear.
When WW2 broke out a lot of futurist preachers were saying "this is it! Jesus is coming back any day now".
My mother was a small child and late one night, as she looked out into the south Texas sky (through her screen backdoor), one star appeared to be getting larger. She thought "It must be Jesus coming! He'll be here by morning for sure."
She sat down (still gazing up) and soon fell asleep leaning against the door post. Waking up to daylight - everything seemed normal but was she simply left behind? She quickly went to the front door, hurried outside and (to her relief) saw that the street lights were all still in their places (she thought that the preacher had said when Jesus came back he would gather all the street lights together - she didn't know what "Israelites" meant)
I realize (for several reasons) what I suggested was a tall order, but in light of our conversation I will reply that I do not rely on "millennialism", "dispensationalism" or any other man made "doctrine". (And, I know anyone who disagrees with me concerning my "beliefs" will disagree with that statement as well.)
I rely totally on the scripture, ( the written, plain text reading of The Word ) and understand and accept that anything "discerned" by me, from the perspective of the rest of the church is considered an "interpretation" by all others. This is in the face of the scriptures declaration of itself, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that there is no private interpretation possible. We only understand the message being conveyed or we do not.
Each of us believes our own understanding to be correct, or at least close. I am no different. However, on this subject, I believe the Scripture to be quite clear.
Jesus speaks of an "escape" from the time period he calls "great tribulation". But the word "escape" actually appears in a phrase in Luke 21:36. It lays out conditions necessary to which we are to comply, in order to be "accounted worthy" to participate in that escape. We are not WORTHY, but the Lord (God) will "account us worthy" under the compliance of obedience.
Luke 21:36 Watch (be ready, anticipate) ye therefore, and pray always, (remain in fellowship) "that" ye may beaccounted worthy to escapeall these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Yes, there is an "escape", if we are to believe the words of Jesus. But there are Conditions to be met in order to be included in the escape, if we are to believe and accept the warning as well.
I'll take Jesus at his word and warning, thank you.
Have you ever heard of the telescoping nature of Jesus warning of Jerusalem as applied to the worlds end?
Luke 21:36 is not being directed to the worlds end, but to the destruction of Jersalem. Those at the time faced either judgement by the destruction by Rome or escaped the wrath.
The correct application is that the world is going to be destroyed at the return of Christ (just like the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem)....and either you'll be destroyed or escape.
I will respond in more detail later with the passage readings (that most people deny) ,, but.
The destruction of Jerusalem is foretold by Jesus in introduction to all three Olivet Discourses of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. But then Jesus goes on to explain to his disciples the answer to three other questions asked by them concerning,,
1. when shall "these" things be.
2. what will be the sign of your coming
3. and the end of the world
Jesus gives a semi-detailed (the details are in Revelation, John's record of the same events in that detail, Revelation is his documentation of the same events, he didn't record the Olivet Discourse in his gospel even though he was present.) description of terrible future times that will encompass the entire world, not just Jerusalem, that will not be matched by any other time in history past present and future. The destruction of Jerusalem (even though it was foretold by Jesus, and was fulfilled in 70 AD just as prophesied, did not encompass the entire world, did not encompass all people of all nations, and certainly was not the single most devastating and horrific events in history.
Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Luke 21: 5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, 6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
This is the recorded prophesy that Jesus gave of the destruction of the temple, during the devastation of Jerusalem in 70 AD. This prophesy was physically and literally fulfilled to the letter. THEN,,
Verse, 3 of Matthew 24 says,, And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us,
1. when shall these things be? (the destruction of the temple)
2. and what shall be the sign of thy coming, (the second time he will appear, ending the church age)
3. and of the end of the world? (the end of the world, and the beginning of the millennium)
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Have you ever heard of the telescoping nature of Jesus warning of Jerusalem as applied to the worlds end?
Luke 21:36 is not being directed to the worlds end, but to the destruction of Jersalem.
Sorry, that was the third question they asked. Jesus included the answer to it also. That is the whole purpose of the Olivet Discourse, to answer those three questions, and to explain to the last generation of the church age through the disciples what is to occure at "the end of days".
(Note: the world didn’t end in 70 AD.) There are three questions, dealing with three time periods. Two of which will take place in close proximity to one another at the end of the church age.
Matthew 21:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. 9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
“The end is not yet”, and “the end is not by and by” is a statement directed to the disciples, and their lifetime. In fact, Peter is told in the gospels he will live to an old age, teaching the disciples that God’s “time” in the Spiritual (short, near, close, nigh, soon) has no bearing on the physical time in which we live. There is no difference to God between a day, and 365,250 days (or a thousand years). Words in the physical that carry the suggestion of time, or are time related, have no literal meaning in the Spiritual, only significance.
Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Luke 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
The time that Jesus names “the beginning of sorrows” has within its description all the events that have taken place and will take place during the church age. This includes the lifetimes of the disciples, the destruction of the temple and beyond to the end of the age.
Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake.
Luke 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
A perfect description of the time from the day of Pentecost until the present, in the beginning of which all of the disciple except John were martyred for their faith. The balance of these passages describe the church age until the end.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
He (or she) that endures (within their faith) unto the end (to their death inside the church age or the church age itself) will be saved (from the calamity’s that are found beyond the close of the church age.) Several items found in the following verses confirm these statements.
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
THE END (of the world that the disciples had asked of, much less the end of the age) can not come until the Gospel of the kingdom has been preached in all the world as a witness to all nations of the truth in Christ. There is disagreements among scholars today whether that has been attained currently, or is yet to be achieved just before the Great Tribulation, or even inside the Great Tribulation by the two witnesses and the 144.000, but,, it most certainly had not been accomplished by 70 AD. As a result, much or most of these passages are not speaking of that time, but of this current generation which will see the end of the church age.
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Verses 15 - 21 are most definitely speaking of the seven year tribulation after the close of the church age. The abomination of desolation must be preformed by the false Messiah (anti-christ) himself, therefore has not yet taken place, and is still a future event. He will enter the rebuilt temple of that time and proclaim himself God on earth and demand to be worshiped. (The utensils and tools used in the temple are, and have been for several years, being gathered or being fashioned for future use in the rebuilt temple. “Plans” for the rebuilding of the temple exist today in at least three variations due to the unknown finality of its construction. The orthodox portion of the state of Israel await only the window of opportunity to begin that construction.) This statement is directed to Israel since it is they that must recognize him as the false Messiah through his actions connected with their temple, and turn their “allegiance” back toward their true Messiah, Jesus Christ.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Verse 31 describes the sending of angels by Jesus to gather (not the gathering of them by Jesus himself, as described by 1st Thessalonians 4:16-18) “together” (not caught up, but) from the four winds (from every corner of the world, horizontally not vertically as will be the Rapture).
Verses 29 - 30 describe the Glorious Appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ at the END of the Great Tribulation. (After the tribulation of those days, the worst the world WILL EVER see, therefore this and these events have yet to occur.) This appearing will be seen by every single person on the face of our planet earth (in whatever fashion God chooses for its occurrence) just as described by John in Revelation 1:7
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Revelation 1:7 differs in its description of its appearance of the Lord Jesus Christ, in that there in only one passage in the scripture that mentions “the second time” he appears (which will be his next appearance). It records a much different manner in which that appearance will occur.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear “the second time” without sin unto salvation.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
The generation that sees the things being described (not the generation that was receiving the description) shall not pass way till all of the things being described are fulfilled.
His second appearance is “the day” that believers are commanded to be in anticipation for.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
There is an escape from The Great Tribulation Period, but there are Conditions to be met for each of us to be included in that escape.
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need to get going... taking family to the grand canyon.
AND, the end of the world.
