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Old 09-19-2011, 05:45 PM
 
299 posts, read 262,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
HotinAZ

Acts 9:26 does not say anything about Paul being acknowledged as an APOSTLE. That has Paul saying that he was a persecutor then converted and was then a preacher, he pushed himself as a disciple then as apostle, Jesus never said Paul you are my apostle.

Also Acts 14:14 Says both Paul and Barnabas are apostles so is that now 14 apostles? I wonder if this has anything to do with Revelation 2:2 when Jesus says to the church in Ephesus and commends the Ephesians for trying those that say they are apostles and are not, but are liars? Acts was written by Luke who is a dear friend of Paul.


Acts 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
Act 9:20 ¶ And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Act 9:21 But all that heard [him] were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?
Act 9:22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.
Act 9:23 ¶ And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him:
Act 9:24 But their laying await was known of Saul. And they watched the gates day and night to kill him.
Act 9:25 Then the disciples took him by night, and let [him] down by the wall in a basket.
Act 9:26 ¶ And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.
Act 9:27 But Barnabas took him, and brought [him] to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.

Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 ¶ Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Gal 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
Gal 1:20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

Act 9:22 contradicts Gal 1:16-18

In Luke when Jesus is talking to the eleven remaining, Luke 24:44-49 It seems to say that they are to be witnesses to the things that they have seen and heard from Jesus regarding the fulfillment of prophecy.

In Revelation 21:14 It specifically states there are 12 apostles of the lamb.



Paul vs. Jesus -- disagreement and contradictions between the Christian founders



Jesus never gave another law
"It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13
"The law was added so that the trespass might increase." Rom. 5:20
"For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law." Heb. 7:12
Evidently Jesus has added one. Isa. says, "Our Lord is a Lawgiver" and quotes Jesus saying, 'a law shall proceed from Me".
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Old 09-19-2011, 07:30 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 1,118,736 times
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This is probably of little to no interest to anyone, but in the beginning OP, mention was made of the blessing upon Benjamin mentioning him being a ravening wolf in Genesis. It brought to my mind something I read about awhile back by an insightful (imho) lady by the name of Elaine Cook. She says (in an article about Benjamin, who she says was a type of the Benjamin company of the last days, the overcomers):

He said, "Benjamin shall ravin (as) a wolf; in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil" Gen. 49:27.

At first glance, the prophecy doesn’t look too favorable. It compares Benjamin to a wolf! In the original manuscripts, the word "as" is not there. It was inserted by the translators. That makes a big difference! Benjamin is not the wolf — he is going after the wolf! That puts an entirely different perspective to the prophecy.

"Benjamin shall ravin a wolf." What does that mean? "Ravin" means "to tear in pieces and feed." What is the "wolf" that he is attacking? The wolf is the beastly, carnal teachings of man’s system of religion. Benjamin is going to tear them to pieces and turn them into food for the hungry. He will tear down the beastly teachings of men’s carnal minds.

___
I find that interesting. It is true, The Hebrew Interlinear Bible does not have the 'as' in there. The translators just assumed that since a wolf is usually the hunter of prey and not the prey itself that that is what the verse meant to say. But I think Ms. Cook may very well be correct in this.

I thought it was an interesting tidbit.
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Old 09-19-2011, 08:55 PM
 
2,541 posts, read 2,541,327 times
Reputation: 336
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
HotinAZ

Acts 9:26 does not say anything about Paul being acknowledged as an APOSTLE. That has Paul saying that he was a persecutor then converted and was then a preacher, he pushed himself as a disciple then as apostle, Jesus never said Paul you are my apostle.

Also Acts 14:14 Says both Paul and Barnabas are apostles so is that now 14 apostles? I wonder if this has anything to do with Revelation 2:2 when Jesus says to the church in Ephesus and commends the Ephesians for trying those that say they are apostles and are not, but are liars? Acts was written by Luke who is a dear friend of Paul.


Acts 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
Act 9:20 ¶ And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Act 9:21 But all that heard [him] were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?
Act 9:22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.
Act 9:23 ¶ And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him:
Act 9:24 But their laying await was known of Saul. And they watched the gates day and night to kill him.
Act 9:25 Then the disciples took him by night, and let [him] down by the wall in a basket.
Act 9:26 ¶ And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.
Act 9:27 But Barnabas took him, and brought [him] to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.

Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia,
and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 ¶ Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Gal 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
Gal 1:20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

Act 9:22 contradicts Gal 1:16-18

In Luke when Jesus is talking to the eleven remaining, Luke 24:44-49 It seems to say that they are to be witnesses to the things that they have seen and heard from Jesus regarding the fulfillment of prophecy.

In Revelation 21:14 It specifically states there are 12 apostles of the lamb.



Paul vs. Jesus -- disagreement and contradictions between the Christian founders



Jesus never gave another law
Paul never said that the law itself ended but rather ended as means as they thought to salvation. The law itself still remains Paul said to convince people of there sin and as the standard of love. Christ is the Power and the Glory [the keeping of the commandments] and not of ourselves, but rather the gift of God through faith in Christ ability as Paul said, ROM 8:3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:ROM 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled [kept] in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Paul's mission was to make it perfectly clear that to go about and try to keep the commandments via the carnal nature was impossible because the law is spiritual and only Christ is the living Spirit that upholds and fulfills the law. He alone can enable the law to be fulfilled in us more and more who walk in the Spirit. This is the very doctrine that Peter spoke concerning what Paul wrote and that many would misunderstand to there own destruction because without Christ there is no pleasing God.

There were those temporary ordinances however such as Temple service and circumcision that were but a shadow of the real thing that have been done away with.

Last edited by garya123; 09-19-2011 at 09:07 PM..
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Old 09-19-2011, 09:24 PM
 
461 posts, read 480,671 times
Reputation: 39
Whoever refuses to honor the son refuses to honor the Father who sent Him.Those are the words of the Lord who sent me.

Paul never said that.

Anyone who acts in truth comes into the light and the deeds he does in God are clearly seen. That's the word of the Lord who sent me.

Paul never said that or anything except about the last supper.I don't by him being a true disciple.

No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.
And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him shall not perish but shall have eternal life.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of Gods only son. And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.
For everyone who does evil things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.
But whoever acts in truth comes into the light, and the deeds he does in God are clearly seen.

My teaching is not my own it comes from the One who sent me. I came down from heaven to do His will.
Whoever chooses to do his will shall know about this teaching namely, whether it comes from God or whether I‘m speaking on my own.
Whoever speaks on his own seeks his own glory, but whoever seeks the glory of the one who sent him is truthful, and there is no dishonesty in his heart.
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:57 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 7,016,600 times
Reputation: 1619
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
This is probably of little to no interest to anyone, but in the beginning OP, mention was made of the blessing upon Benjamin mentioning him being a ravening wolf in Genesis. It brought to my mind something I read about awhile back by an insightful (imho) lady by the name of Elaine Cook. She says (in an article about Benjamin, who she says was a type of the Benjamin company of the last days, the overcomers):

He said, "Benjamin shall ravin (as) a wolf; in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil" Gen. 49:27.

At first glance, the prophecy doesn’t look too favorable. It compares Benjamin to a wolf! In the original manuscripts, the word "as" is not there. It was inserted by the translators. That makes a big difference! Benjamin is not the wolf — he is going after the wolf! That puts an entirely different perspective to the prophecy.

"Benjamin shall ravin a wolf." What does that mean? "Ravin" means "to tear in pieces and feed." What is the "wolf" that he is attacking? The wolf is the beastly, carnal teachings of man’s system of religion. Benjamin is going to tear them to pieces and turn them into food for the hungry. He will tear down the beastly teachings of men’s carnal minds.

___
I find that interesting. It is true, The Hebrew Interlinear Bible does not have the 'as' in there. The translators just assumed that since a wolf is usually the hunter of prey and not the prey itself that that is what the verse meant to say. But I think Ms. Cook may very well be correct in this.

I thought it was an interesting tidbit.
Most interesting tidbit! Thank you for posting this. I have listened to some of Elaine Cook's insights a long time ago. I was blessed by it.
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Old 09-20-2011, 05:59 AM
 
2,541 posts, read 2,541,327 times
Reputation: 336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Love Is God View Post
Please read the complete context in which it is written, it's because of people like you that the Bible is so misunderstood. If Paul intended to speak about us, he would have used THEY who will be alive but here is a clear WE and in a letter written not for us but to the Thessalonians!!! Sorry if that bursts your bubble!
Paul used the word We because he like all of us do not know the day nor the hour of Christ return. Not even Christ Himself Knows. So it was natural that Paul included himself in the WE simply because it was a possibility.
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Old 09-20-2011, 07:40 AM
 
6,822 posts, read 6,633,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battig1370 View Post
Saul\St.Paul said that his God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie. >Thess. 2:11
---> Tim. 2:8 > Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel
---> Tim. 3:10 > "But you have carefully followed my doctrines, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, persecutions, affictions,, which happened to me.
---> 2 Cor. 11: > "For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles."
---> Philippians 3:17 > "Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern."
---> 1 Cor. 4:16 + 1 Cor. 11:1 > "Therefore I urge you, imitate me." + "Imitate me, just as I imitate Christ."
---> Rom.16:25 > "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel ---"
---> Rom. 2:16 > "In that day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

Jesus warned as written in:
Matt. 24:4 > "Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am Christ,' and deceive many."
Matt. 24:11 > "many false prophets will rise up and deceive many."
Matt. 24:24 > "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and to deceive, if possible, even the elect.",

and Saul/St.Paul said in 2 Cor. 12:12, "Truly the sign of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds," and also Saul/St.Paul in Philippians 4:13, "I can do all things through Christ who strengtheneth me." > ???


Before Jesus was taken up to the Father, Jesus said to His disciples, "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me" > John 14:30. The Ruler of this world reigns in place of Christ with the spirit of self-righteousness and deception.

"While they (Men of Galilee) watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of sight. While they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel and said, --- This same Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven will come so in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven. > Acts 1:9-11.

The Son of Man who sits on throne will not be seen until after the great tribulation, The reason not until after is because it is written that Jesus said, "I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" > Matt 23:39. <---> "I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." > Luke 13:35.

Also in John 16:8 - 11 Jesus said;
---> "And when He comes has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment;"
---> "Of Sin, because they believe do not believe in Me;"
---> "Of Righteousness, because I go to My Father, and you see Me no more;"
---> "Of Judgment, because the Ruler of this world is judged."


Most all christians would say, "Oh My God!, it's unthinkable, and it's impossible, that our God would allow Satan, who is the Ruler of this world, to come to Saul in place of Christ, in a blinding light saying, "I am the Jesus of Nazareth" to deceive the whole world. Can a lie be so deceptive that it is impossible to believe that it is a lie? YES, for those who say "it is impossible", the door is shut, not even the 'Testimony of Jesus' can open the door to the 'Spirit of Truth'. Jesus did warn as written in Matt. 24:24 and Mark 13:22 that, if it were possible, even the very elect would be deceived. Saul/St.Paul through his Christ has deceived the people of the Christian world into believing that no one can overcome as Jesus overcame, and that no one would be found worthy to take the book/scroll out of the right hand of Him who sit on the throne. > Rev. 5:7, but he who had an open door set before him, as written in Rev. 3:8 - 11, who is he who overcomes in Rev 2:26 - 27, is the Lamb that was found worthy to take the book/scroll.out of the right hand of Him who sit on the throne with the Father.

As Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." > John 14:6. --- "Heaven and earth will pass away, but 'My Words' will by no means pass away." > Matt. 24:35. --- It is 'Jesus' Words' which is the Testimony of Jesus that the Ruler of this world is judged by, but not as written in Rom. 2:16.

Jesus said, "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. --- You are My friends if you do whatever I command you." > John 15:9 - 14.

The Son of Man who sit on the throne with His Father as One, is the Alpha and the Omega in 'The Revelation', and "He shall reward every man according to his works." > Matt 16:27, when He comes. "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his works" > Rev. 22:12 - 13 > Matt. 25:31 - 46.

"If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land" > 2 Chron 7:14
Scripture taken out of context. Paul doesn't say to follow Paul. He says to follow Christ. "My" gospel talking about the authority of the gospel given to him.

There are ZERO contradictions in Paul's message to the 4 gospels. < Interesting no doctrinal issues was displayed except passages taken out of context implying Paul is asking people to follow him not Christ. The problem is taking his words out of context.

Though words but if you deny Paul as Christ's messenger. You are denying the Body of Christ/Church - the salvation of the gentiles as co-heirs of Christ's kingdom. This also would give hold to replacement theology - denying the destiny of Israel. This is going on now regardless of denying Romans 9,10,11 etc by the Christian church.

Paul wasn't a false apostle. People may take him out of context, but the message is consistent with the entire Bible. The more you know about the OT, the more you have no problem accepting Paul. He's noted by long sentences and talking in a somewhat poetic indirect manner at times. What I hear is a man broken from having a deep revelation of truth pleading people come to Christ and walk in his ways.
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Old 09-20-2011, 07:51 AM
 
1,263 posts, read 1,389,511 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lee9786 View Post
Scripture taken out of context. Paul doesn't say to follow Paul. He says to follow Christ. "My" gospel talking about the authority of the gospel given to him.

There are ZERO contradictions in Paul's message to the 4 gospels. < Interesting no doctrinal issues was displayed except passages taken out of context implying Paul is asking people to follow him not Christ. The problem is taking his words out of context.

Though words but if you deny Paul as Christ's messenger. You are denying the Body of Christ/Church - the salvation of the gentiles as co-heirs of Christ's kingdom. This also would give hold to replacement theology - denying the destiny of Israel. This is going on now regardless of denying Romans 9,10,11 etc by the Christian church.

Paul wasn't a false apostle. People may take him out of context, but the message is consistent with the entire Bible. The more you know about the OT, the more you have no problem accepting Paul. He's noted by long sentences and talking in a somewhat poetic indirect manner at times. What I hear is a man broken from having a deep revelation of truth pleading people come to Christ and walk in his ways.
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Old 09-20-2011, 08:01 AM
 
299 posts, read 262,948 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee9786 View Post
Scripture taken out of context. Paul doesn't say to follow Paul. He says to follow Christ. "My" gospel talking about the authority of the gospel given to him.

There are ZERO contradictions in Paul's message to the 4 gospels. < Interesting no doctrinal issues was displayed except passages taken out of context implying Paul is asking people to follow him not Christ. The problem is taking his words out of context.

Though words but if you deny Paul as Christ's messenger. You are denying the Body of Christ/Church - the salvation of the gentiles as co-heirs of Christ's kingdom. This also would give hold to replacement theology - denying the destiny of Israel. This is going on now regardless of denying Romans 9,10,11 etc by the Christian church.

Paul wasn't a false apostle. People may take him out of context, but the message is consistent with the entire Bible. The more you know about the OT, the more you have no problem accepting Paul. He's noted by long sentences and talking in a somewhat poetic indirect manner at times. What I hear is a man broken from having a deep revelation of truth pleading people come to Christ and walk in his ways.
RE the term "but the message" What is this 'message' you have referenced?
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 1,118,736 times
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Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Most interesting tidbit! Thank you for posting this. I have listened to some of Elaine Cook's insights a long time ago. I was blessed by it.
Yes, I really enjoyed much she had/has to say.
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