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and like I said mike my quote of Irenaeus was not about universal salvation it was about your error that sin is eternal. which obviously Irenaeus is saying is heresy.
I never stated "sin is eternal". I don't even know what that means.
From Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book IV, Chapter 28, Section 2:
"For as, in the New Testament, that faith of men [to be placed] in God has been increased, receiving in addition [to what was already revealed] the Son of God, that man too might be a partaker of God; so is also our walk in life required to be more circumspect, when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous language: thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, Matthew 25:41 these shall be damned for ever; and to whomsoever He shall say, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity, Matthew 25:34 these do receive the kingdom for ever, and make constant advance in it."
I never stated "sin is eternal". I don't even know what that means.
sure you do but you want to argue over the definition of what it means and take the focus off of what we are actually talking about.
You either believe sin is eternal or you believe God took away the sin of the world and is just tormenting people for eternity even though their sin has been taken away.
Quote:
From Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book IV, Chapter 28, Section 2:
"For as, in the New Testament, that faith of men [to be placed] in God has been increased, receiving in addition [to what was already revealed] the Son of God, that man too might be a partaker of God; so is also our walk in life required to be more circumspect, when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous language: thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, Matthew 25:41 these shall be damned for ever; and to whomsoever He shall say, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity, Matthew 25:34 these do receive the kingdom for ever, and make constant advance in it.
First off you are NOT paying attention to what I have said. PAY ATTENTION. I never said anything about the salvation of all in the quote of Irenaeus. So why do you keep trying to argue against something I never said?
So I will make my point again in reference to the Irenaeus quote.
Very clearly say that this was done so that sin should not be immortal.
Thus he is saying your belief in sin being eternal is heresy.
I don't want to accuse you of being disingenuous; but if you're not disingenuous than you are extremely gullible. Stop listening to liars.
I am not the gullible one here mike. If Origen's views on this topic were formally condemned by the Church then so was both Gregory's and many more who held to the same belief. Which like I said does not leave you with much other then your pope.
sure you do but you want to argue over the definition of what it means and take the focus off of what we are actually talking about.
You either believe sin is eternal or you believe God took away the sin of the world and is just tormenting people for eternity even though their sin has been taken away.
I don't believe in creating unnecessary and/or false dichotomies where there are none.
If I'm going to claim to believe or disbelieve in something, I want to know what it is I'm believing or disbelieving in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
First off you are NOT paying attention to what I have said. PAY ATTENTION. I never said anything about the salvation of all in the quote of Irenaeus. So why do you keep trying to argue against something I never said?
So I will make my point again in reference to the Irenaeus quote.
Very clearly say that this was done so that sin should not be immortal.
Thus he is saying your belief in sin being eternal is heresy.
We already know that Irenaeus believed in eternal hell and the fact that some people go there, so any other Irenaeus quote has to be taken in that context.
I don't believe in creating unnecessary and/or false dichotomies where there are none.
If I'm going to claim to believe or disbelieve in something, I want to know what it is I'm believing or disbelieving in.
Well that should be easy to determine, do the people being eternally tormented retain their sins?
Quote:
We already know that Irenaeus believed in eternal hell and the fact that some people go there, so any other Irenaeus quote has to be taken in that context.
No actually we don't know that Irenaeus believed in eternal hell. You gave one quote in English that was translated from the Greek. Did Irenaeus use the Greek aion or it adjective or did he use Aidios?
If aion or its adjective then he was not saying what YOU think he was saying.
Well that should be easy to determine, do the people being eternally tormented retain their sins?
If one dies in a state of mortal sin, they are confirmed in their state. Does that mean that they "retain their sins"? I don't know if I can answer that as I'm quite sure you and I don't view sin in the same way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
No actually we don't know that Irenaeus believed in eternal hell.
LOL, yes we do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
You gave one quote in English that was translated from the Greek. Did Irenaeus use the Greek aion or it adjective or did he use Aidios?
If aion or its adjective then he was not saying what YOU think he was saying.
"these shall be damned for ever"
Do you believe that Judas will eventually end up in heaven?
If one dies in a state of mortal sin, they are confirmed in their state. Does that mean that they "retain their sins"? I don't know if I can answer that as I'm quite sure you and I don't view sin in the same way.
How do you view sin?
Quote:
"these shall be damned for ever"
Do you believe that Judas will eventually end up in heaven?
In Roman Catholic doctrine, isn't Purgatory a place or the state of suffering inhabited by the souls of sinners who are expiating their sins before going to heaven?
You are fighting an unwinnable battle with Catholic Mike, pneuma. It has been established that he is a magical thinker and does not operate on the wavelength of logic and reason. I realize you and he do have some of that magic in common, but he seems to be missing the logic and reason part in favor of dogma by authority.
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