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This is a bit that I posted at the Evangelical Universalist Forum.
It is long but I think important. Im not saying it hasn't been said before in one way or another but its my take on the Hitler question and that as an objection to Universalism.
Im hoping this might be helpful to someone.
It is hard deciphering. I think there are some truths to universalism that standard Evangelical Christianity has debunked. Just using the term universalism sets off alarm bells. For instance, I do believe that the atonement (at odds with 5 point Clavinism) was universal. The blood of Jesus atoned for every man's sin, every creature of God that ever lived, was alive at the time and would come.
But I can't help but see that there is some aspect of man's response to that work that makes it applicable to the individual. There is a place of judgment mentioned throughout the NT for those that do not believe the gospel. Another thought... Perhaps hell isn't eternal but a place of purging that gives some (maybe all) a chance to come to the place of purification that they did not receive when they rejected the message of the cross of Christ. Maybe hell isn't an eternal torment for the individual and the place itself is what is eternal.... in contrast to the sentence of the individual.
Still weighing some of these. Posted these thoughts recently but got no replies. Appears I walked into a drama with rolls already asigned and the dirt kept slinging over my head. Would be nice if there were a place that discusses some of this without the labels that automatically divides into camps and stones start slinging.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
The purpose of the Lake of Fire is to remove the dross (even death itself) and purify.
@Saintmarks. I agree, Jesus's sacrifice was like an invitation to everlasting life. However, in order for the invited to benefit requires an RSVP and follow through.
The "lake of fire" is the second death. Those aren't my words or thoughts but what is found in the Book of Revelation. “The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars – their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”-Revelation 21:8. It's important to look at the whole Scripture.
However, is this eternal torment? Jesus talked about the second death in Mark 9:47,48. The earliest copies of this Bible Scripture do NOT contain the word hell. The original word is Gehenna. Jews including Jesus and early Christians had a different idea of death. Death was the end all. Nothing survived but one's hope rested in the resurrection. In Matthew 23:33 Jesus states that some of the religious leaders "off spring of vipers, snakes" would be subject to Gehenna. No resurrection hope for them
Some Christian religions SDAs, Jehovahs Witnesses know the Bible doesn't teach eternal torment. For some other religions the scholarly work has not changed doctrine. The below is a commentary about Mark 9:47,48:
Notice this work published in a Catholic publication El evangelio de Marcos. Análisis lingüístico y comentario exegético, Volume II: “[The] phrase is taken from Isaiah (66,24). There the prophet shows the two ways corpses were usually destroyed: putrefaction and incineration . . . The juxtaposition in the text of maggots and fire reinforces the idea of destruction. . . . Both destructive forces are described as permanent (‘is not quenched, does not die’): there is simply no way to escape them. In this image, the only survivors are the maggot and the fire—not man—and they both annihilate anything that falls within their power. Hence, this is not a description of everlasting torment, but one of total destruction which, as it prevents resurrection from occurring, is tantamount to final death. [Fire] is, then, a symbol of annihilation.
As a JW we believe that Non JWs will be included in the resurrection. It may sound conceited but I think its a loving provision to bring back to life those who were ignorant of God and Jesus and give them a second chance.
Bravo Saintmarks. I will suggest that you are weaning yourself from another "doctrine of men" in thinking scripture is to be our primary "guide," and responding to the Spirit Jesus promised in line wth the "fruit" of that Spirit as enumerated by Paul.
I still ask any who DO believe in an eternal torment Hell to explain what justice requires this eternal consequence? What does it mean in your opinion to come to Jesus? Why is it such a heinous failure that it deserves such an unremitting, unrelenting, and unending consequence? What "fruit of the Spirit" justifies it?
Picture yourself as a missionary to the Muslim nation of Senegal, West Africa. The date? September 26, 2002. About a year prior, you befriended your neighbor, Abdou Ndieye, a Muslim merchant. Only a few weeks ago, he graciously accepted your invitation to study the Bible with you. You are thrilled. Abdou is the first Muslim with whom you have begun sharing the Good News. Today you prepare to explore another portion of God‘s Word with him, but something terrible has happened. You cannot believe what you are hearing and seeing on the news. The Joola, a Senegalese ferry, has capsized killing almost 2,000 people. You remember that Abdou‘s wife, Astou, and his 14 year-old daughter, Fatou, are on that ship. You are in shock and cannot believe what you are seeing—a ship‘s underside sticking up out of the sea with helicopters hovering overhead. You hurry next door. As you knock on the door, you hear deep groans and wailing. You slowly enter. Abdou is prostrate on the floor. He pleads before Yalla (Wolof for Allah), “Why? Why? How could you let this happen?” He goes into spasms of weeping, beating his hands against the floor. Feeling utterly helpless, you pray, “God help me comfort my friend.” Abdou lifts his eyes, hardly able to recognize you for the tears. “My wife and daughter have died a terrible death! Tell me I will see them again; tell me they are safe in God‘s arms! Has your Jesus taken them to His heaven?” You are lost for words. The silence is deafening. “Answer me, Christian, will I see them again? Are they in a better place? Tell me!” You remain speechless. What can you say? Where is the Good News when you need it most?
“He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God’s merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it–the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will.”
The all things in the heavens, the all things in the earth, and you who once were dead in trespasses and sins. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one, the ta pavnte en/in Christ.
Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.
Are our broadest hopes broad enough? Shall there be a nook or abyss, in all the universe of God, finally unlightened by the Cross? Shall there be a sin, or sorrow, or pain unhealed? Is the very universe, is creation in all its extent, a field wide enough for the Son of God?
Dear Jude: This will most likely be a terrible shock to you, but our Father has the final word>>>>
"I create ALL things new"
What part of all is evading Elder Athanasios Mitilinaios?
The New Radical Unbelief Bible
1 Cor. 15:22
“For as in Adam some die, so also in Christ some shall be made alive. But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished some rule and some authority and power.”
Rev. 5:13
“And some created things that are in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and some things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb, be blessing and honour and glory and dominion and power forever.”
Col. 1:18-20
“He too is that head whose body is the Church, the Firstborn from the dead, he is to the Church the Source of its life, that in some things He might occupy the foremost place/ to be in some things alone supreme. For it pleased the Father that in him the divine nature in some of its fulness should dwell. And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by him to reconcile some things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things on earth, or things in heaven. And you that were sometimes alienated…”
Acts 3:20,21
“And He will send Jesus, your destined Christ, yet heaven must retain Him, until the restitution of some things. (when some things are put right)”
1 Cor. 15:28
“And when some things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put some things under Him, that God may be some in some.”
1 Cor. 15:25,27
“For He must reign until He hath put some enemies under His feet…For He hath put some things under His feet. But when He saith some things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put some things under Him.”
Romans 11:32
“For God has consigned some men to disobedience that He might have mercy upon some.”
Eph. 4:10
“Yea, He who came down is the same who is gone up, far above some heavens, that He might fill some things with His Presence.”
John 5:28
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which some that are in the graves shall hear His voice. Those who have done good will to live and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”
1 Timothy 2:4
“For this is good and pleasing in the eyes of God our Saviour; who will have some men to be saved and come to an increasing knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:6
“For there is one intermediary (One who brings God and men together) who gave Himself a ransom in behalf of some to be testified in due time.”
Cor. 5:15
“For the love of God overmasters us because we judge that if one died for some, then were some dead; And that His purpose in dying for some was that men, while still in life, should cease to live for themselves, and should live for Him who for their sake died and was raised to life.”
Col. 1:16
"For by Him were some things created, of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen (angels or archangels and some of the powers of Heaven)…some things were created by Him, and for Him (some were made by Christ for His own use and glory.)
John 3:35
“The Father loves the Son, and has given some things into His hand (has given Him control over less than everything). Whoever trusts on the Son possesses eternal life and he who does not obey the Son, God’s displeasure hangs over him continually.”
Gal. 3:20
“But the Scripture has concluded/consigned some without exception to the custody of sin, in order that the promise by faith in Christ Jesus might be given to those who believe in Him.”
Heb. 1:2
“God…hath in these days spoken unto us in His Son who is the predestined Lord of the universe. (whom he has appointed heir of some things)”
2 Cor. 5:14
“For the love of Christ constraineth/overmasters/compels/controls us, and this is the conviction we have reached; if one man died on behalf of some, then some thereby became dead men. Christ died for some, so that being alive should no longer mean living with our own life, but with his life who died for some of us and has risen again.”
Heb.8:11
“And they shall not teach some men his neighbor, and some his brother, saying get to know the Lord, for some of them shall know me from small to great. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness…”
Acts 10:36
"The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: He is Lord of some.
Rom. 11:36
“For from him some things come; through Him some things exists; and in him some things end.” (For of him and through him, and to him are some things.)
Eph. 4:6
“One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of some, who is over some, and works through some, and dwells in some.”
Heb. 12:23
“To the festal gathering and Church of the first-born, enrolled as citizens in heaven, and to God the Judge of some men and unto the spirits of righteous ones made perfect.”
James 2:10
“For whomsoever shall keep the whole law, but fails in a single point, has become guilty of violating some.”
Romans 3:22,23
“…the righteous of God which comes by believing in Jesus Christ. …For some have sinned/ none have attained the glorious likeness of God/lack the glory that comes from God/ are deprived of the Divine splendour.”
John 17:2
“As thou has made him sovereign over some of mankind that he should give aeonios life to as many as thou hast given him.”
Romans 9:5
“The patriarchs are theirs and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. May God who is supreme above some, be blessed throughout the ages.”
2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack/does not loiter/ is not dilatory concerning his promise, according to some people’s conception of slowness; but He bears patiently with you, because it is not His will for any to be lost, but for some to come/reach repentance.”
Phil. 2:10,11
In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus some knees will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of His lordship shall be open and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by some beings in the heavens, by some beings on the earth and by some beings in the underworld.
I was surprised to even see this brought up on C-D. The book is painfully clear on the end of unbelievers separated from God by their choice. Hell was constructed for the devil and his angels, nothing evil can ever touch heaven.......if you don't like God and are by definition sinful He has a solution for you.
I was surprised to even see this brought up on C-D. The book is painfully clear on the end of unbelievers separated from God by their choice. Hell was constructed for the devil and his angels, nothing evil can ever touch heaven.......if you don't like God and are by definition sinful He has a solution for you.
Good grief, Cruiser! To begin, we do not choose Him, He chooses us. The Plan of all plans has zero to do with us, and everything to do with Him.
"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."
God is the ta panta, Source, Guide, & Goal of the all.
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I still ask any who DO believe in an eternal torment Hell to explain what justice requires this eternal consequence? What does it mean in your opinion to come to Jesus? Why is it such a heinous failure that it deserves such an unremitting, unrelenting, and unending consequence? What "fruit of the Spirit" justifies it?