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I will, Charlie, if you first explain to me, why the Lake (of fire) is a place of safety, a refuge or haven, according to the Greek. And, explain the true meaning of fire, which is not the concocted hellfire of mankind that you believe, or have been taught to believe. Seeing that you really do not have me on ignore, otherwise you would not be responding to those who have responded to me.
Again, the lake (or furnace) of fire is a place where there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
1. We are required to love our enemies, may we not safely infer that God loves His enemies? (Matt. 5:44)
2. If God loves His enemies, will He punish them more than will be for their good?
3. Would endless punishment be for the good of any being?
4. Since God loves His friends, if He loves His enemies also, are not all mankind the objects of His love?
5. If God loves those only who love Him, what better is He than the sinner? (Luke 6:32-33)
6. Since "love thinks no evil," can God design the ultimate evil of a single soul? (1 Cor. 13:5)
7. Since "love works no ill," can God inflict, or cause, or allow to be inflicted, an endless ill? (Rom. 13:10)
8. We are forbidden to be overcome by evil, can we safely suppose that God will be overcome by evil? (Rom. 12:21)
9. Would not the infliction of endless punishment prove that God had been overcome by evil?
10. If man does wrong in returning evil for evil, would not God do wrong if He was to do the same?
11. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?
Yup! There are more to come.
Deu 7:9, Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
Deu 7:10, And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
Deu 7:11, Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.
I'm just curious as to how many of those who believe in Universalism here have received Jesus as their Lord and Saviour?
Let's take a head count, one by one.
How many of you, that believe in Universalism here, confess Jesus Christ of Nazareth (of the Bible) as being their Lord and Saviour from sin?
How many of you accept the Jesus of the Bible?
How many of you accept that the holy scriptures, as Jesus said, are "they which testify of me..." (John 5:39-40)
And that they are the final word as concerning doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16)?
This leads up to a point that I would like to make.
If none of you have received the Jesus of the Bible as your Lord and Saviour, and since the Bible teaches that we must receive Jesus as our Lord and Saviour in order to be saved,
Are you not putting off a decision for Christ and also lying to yourselves by teaching each other that you have all of eternity to make that decision?
The devil would say to you, "There is no HURRY..."
God would say to you the following.
Psa 73:13, Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency.
Psa 73:14, For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning.
Psa 73:15, If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children.
Psa 73:16, When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
Psa 73:17, Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.
Psa 73:18, Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.
Psa 73:19, How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.
Psa 73:20, As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.
I'm just curious as to how many of those who believe in Universalism here have received Jesus as their Lord and Saviour?
Let's take a head count, one by one.
How many of you, that believe in Universalism here, confess Jesus Christ of Nazareth (of the Bible) as being their Lord and Saviour from sin?
How many of you accept the Jesus of the Bible?
How many of you accept that the holy scriptures, as Jesus said, are "they which testify of me..." (John 5:39-40)
And that they are the final word as concerning doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16)?
This leads up to a point that I would like to make.
If none of you have received the Jesus of the Bible as your Lord and Saviour, and since the Bible teaches that we must receive Jesus as our Lord and Saviour in order to be saved,
Are you not putting off a decision for Christ and also lying to yourselves by teaching each other that you have all of eternity to make that decision?
The devil would say to you, "There is no HURRY..."
God would say to you the following.
Psa 73:13, Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency.
Psa 73:14, For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning.
Psa 73:15, If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children.
Psa 73:16, When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
Psa 73:17, Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.
Psa 73:18, Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.
Psa 73:19, How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.
Psa 73:20, As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.
The Word of God means nothing to them! They deny it, then replace it with what they think God should do!
They will stand before the Creator of this world and answer for all the souls they have misled!
Again, the lake (or furnace) of fire is a place where there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Divine Fire
The koine theion is the incense of Jehovah, and with theioo is rooted in Theos.
The Lake of Fire is the incense of Jehovah. Make no mistake: our God is consuming Fire; the Limne of Theos is consuming Fire in which every last element of sin and iniquity is consumed: every last rotten bit!
The association of fire with purification in both Old and New Covenants is easily traceable.
In the Old Covenant the prophetic analogy of silver being purified by fire is classically representative of the purification theme of the Bible.
St. Paul, gets to the heart of the matter when he writes about every mans work being tried by fire, yet the man, himself, being saved.
NOTE: "saved".
St. John, makes it a point to call the Lake of Pur/ the Lake of Fire, but also of brimstone, which is an old word for sulfur. Sulfur is a common agent of ceremonial purification in temples of worship in ancient times.
Destruction or purification?
Neither scripture nor science recognizes the destruction of anything in the sense of annihilation, that is, of anything being reduced to a state of absolute nothingness. Destruction does not render anything nonexistent, but rather incapable of carrying out its function, as in the destruction of a tank in warfare. The mass of metal is still there, but it can't function as a tank any longer.
Even if you were to vaporize the tank completely, yet, its intrinsic elements would still exist in other forms. Contrary to conventional theology, all things were not created from nothing, and none of the things that have been created will ever face nonexistence, and by that I mean nonexistence in any form. All created things are subject to change, change in form, but not subject to losing their intrinsic existence.
What we have in the process of purification by fire is, first, a separation of the object of purification from all that defiles it, all that is foreign to its intrinsic constitution, and then the removal of the corrupting element.
Fire, like judgment, so far from being the sinners portion ONLY, is the portion of all.
God's judgment it is not future merely, but present; it is already kindled, always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. I am come to send fire on the earth, for it is certain that He came as a Saviour.
Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, yes with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with Fire.
Rom 9:21, Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22, What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23, And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Understanding Romans 9
I have stated that the answer to what Paul was speaking of in Romans 9 is to be found in the potter and the clay. I posted a small article concerning this but never explained how it relates to what Paul was saying. So I will now endeavour to use both sets of scripture to show the truth that Paul was teaching.
Many read Romans 9 and come away with the idea that God foreknows everything from before creation and as God foreknows everything from before creation nothing can change what God foreknows, thus Gods foreknowledge is static (that is being from before creation), that God makes vessels of dishonour and vessels of honour and that there is no such thing as freewill.
These beliefs do not come to us from scripture; they come to us from philosophy. To be exact they come to us from the philosopher named Plato. Augustine incorporated Plato philosophy into Christianity and since the days of Augustine God's (static) foreknowledge has been taught as the status quo. Because of this teaching, Calvin came to believe that everyone born is predestined by God's foreknowledge to either heaven or hell so there is no such thing as freewill. The beliefs of these 3 men have led many astray from what the scriptures actually state.
So let us look at some scriptures and hopefully people will set aside their preconceived ideas and let the scriptures speak for themselves.
I am going to look at these scripture individually and collectively.
Individually
Romans 9:17-24
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
To understand what Paul is saying here we have to look at the potter and the clay. This is found in Jeremiah 18.
Jeremiah 18:1-6
The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
The Septuagint has verse 4 and the vessel which he was making with his hands fell:
So we see that the vessel God was making fell, so God picks up the clay and makes another vessel out of it.
Now read in Romans 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Now keep in mind that it is the SAME LUMP.
The vessel unto dishonour we are told in verse 22 is fitted to destruction.
What does it mean to be fitted to destruction?
Destruction is the Greek word apoleia, which is rooted in apollumi. Apollumi, as most Universalist knows is a corrective word or a word of correction. When God Apollumi’s someone God is correcting that person.
Fitted is the Greek word katartizo and means to make one as he ought to be made.
So when the scriptures state that the vessels of dishonour are fitted to destruction it is saying that the vessels of dishonour are made how they ought to be made through correction.
What is Gods aim for every vessel?
It is Gods aim that every vessel is made unto honour.
Now remember the vessel of dishonour and the vessel of honour are the SAME LUMP.
What these scriptures are telling us when we compare Paul with Jeremiah is that God will take man and remould and remould man as many times as it takes to make man into a vessel of honour. Out of the SAME LUMP a vessel of honour and a vessel of dishonour.
Collectively
Jeremiah 18:11-12 states
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
Here we see God pronounces evil against Judah and Jerusalem and the people say there is no hope. They seemed to believe like many reading this that because God prophesied there doom and nothing can change Gods prophecy there was no hope for them so they might as well walk after their own devices. Doom was prophesied, doom must come.
However, is that what God wanted them to believe? Or was He showing them that prophesy can be changed through repentance.
Jeremiah 18:7-10
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
Here we can see few things.
Repentance changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy
Obedience changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy
Disobedience changes Gods mind, thus a change in prophesy
So how does Jeremiah apply to what Paul told us?
Romans 9 through 11 has to be taken as a whole. And the whole is all about election.
Paul summarizes everything he said in Romans 9 this way
Romans 9:30-33
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
This summery by Paul here he goes on to explain in Romans 11.
Romans 11 tells us that the Jews were broken off because of unbelief and the Gentiles were grafted in because of faith.
The Jews are vessels of dishonor through their unbelief; they are the vessels, which fell from the potter’s hand.
Jeremiah 18:10
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
The Gentiles are vessels of Honor by faith.
The Jews were hardened the Gentiles received mercy.
Ro.11:23
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Jeremiah 18:8
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
The Jews are the vessels fitted to destruction because of their unbelief. They are the vessels who will be grafted back into the tree if they abide not in their unbelief. Thus, they are the vessels made as they ought to be made through correction, being grafted back in, vessels of honor.
I believe that the kjv is also authoritative as we read it in the English.
the Mormon also believe their bible is authoritative. you stance here is just ridiculous. if you don't take scripture to their original language you simply cannot understand the scriptures. What you are doing is relying on MAN'S interpretation of scriptures and not the scriptures themselves.
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