Septuagint vs Masoretic Texts (Torah, Tanakh, doctrine, women)
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I used to believe the Masoretic Text was a perfect copy of the original Old Testament. I used to believe that the Masoretic Text was how God divinely preserved the Hebrew Scriptures throughout the ages. I was wrong.
The oldest copies of the Masoretic Text only date back to the 10th century, nearly 1000 years after the time of Christ. And these texts differ from the originals in many specific ways. The Masoretic text is named after theMasoretes, who were scribes and Torah scholars who worked in the middle-east between the 7th and 11th centuries. The texts they received, and the edits they provided, ensured that the modern Jewish texts would manifest a notable departure from the original Hebrew Scriptures.
Historical research reveals five significant ways in which the Masoretic Text is different from the original Old Testament:
The Masoretes admitted that they received corrupted texts to begin with.
The Masoretic Text is written with a radically different alphabet than the original.
The Masoretes added vowel points which did not exist in the original.
The Masoretic Text excluded several books from the Old Testament scriptures.
The Masoretic Text includes changes to prophecy and doctrine.
There are certainly differences between the Masoretic text (the Tanakh) and the Septuagint, as well as between the Masoretic text and the Dead Sea Scrolls, and between the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls. And there are similarities as well. At times the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls agree with each other while disagreeing with the Masoretic text. And I understand that at times, none of them are in agreement with each other.
For instance, to use one of the examples in the list in your post, Deuteronomy 32:43, as shown stated in the list, the Masoretic text says nothing about angels worshiping the Messiah.
Deut. 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people. [Septuagint]
Deut. 32:43 Sing out praise, O you nations, for His people! For He will avenge the blood of His servants, inflict revenge upon His adversaries, and appease His land [and] His people. [Tanakh/Masorectic text]
The Dead Sea Scrolls at Deuteronomy 32:43 agrees with the Septuagint against the Tanakh.
Deut. 32:43 Rejoice, O heavens, together with him; and bow down to him all you gods, for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and will render vengeance to his enemies, and will recompense those who hate him, and will atone for the land of his people. [The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, Martin Abegg Jr., Peter Flint & Eugene Ulrich.]
There seems to have been Hebrew texts in existence which are no longer extant. The Masorectic text which is later than both the Septuagint which is a Greek translation of the Hebrew text, and the Dead Sea Scrolls at times agrees with one or both of those texts, and at other times disagrees with one or both.
This means that at times, the Masoretes who copied and compiled the Tanakh either used a text which is unknown to us today, or they purposely changed the text. On the other hand, the same can be said of the Septuagint. The translators of the Septuagint may have at times translated an unknown Hebrew text, or at times may have just changed the text or paraphrased it in their translation.
But I'm not sure that the Jews of Jesus' day were all that concerned about it. Also, the New Testament writers did use the Septuagint more often than the Hebrew text when quoting the Hebrew text.
Last edited by Michael Way; 06-08-2019 at 06:42 PM..
As for My people, their rulers are mockers, and women govern(or rule) them; O My people! Your leaders lead you astray, and the way of your paths they have destroyed.
Septuagint Brenton Translation
12 O my people, your exactors strip you, and extortioners rule over you: O my people, they that pronounce you blessed lead you astray, and pervert the path of your feet.
In Isaiah 9:6 both the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls agree with each other against the Masorectic text/Tanakh.
Tanakh:
Isaiah 9:6 [9:5 in the Tanakh] For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
Notice that in the Tanakh, it is not the child who called the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, but is being called the prince of peace BY the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father.
However, in both the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls, (and again, both of these are much older than the Tanakh) it is the child who is called the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, and the prince of peace.
Septuagint
Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder, and his name is called the messenger of great counsel, < wonderful counsellor, mighty God, potentate, prince of peace, father of the age to come >*: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.
* This text is missing from the translation.
Here's the Greek text of Isaiah 9:6
ὅτι παιδίον ἐγενήθη ἡμῖν, υἱὸς καὶ ἐδόθη ἡμῖν, οὗ ἡ ἀρχὴ ἐγενήθη ἐπὶ τοῦ ὤμου αὐτοῦ, καὶ καλεῖται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελός, θαυμαστὸς σύμβουλος, Θεὸς ἰσχυρός (mighty God), ἐξουσιαστής, ἄρχων εἰρήνης (prince/ruler of peace), πατὴρ τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος· (Father of the age to come) ἐγὼ γὰρ ἄξω εἰρήνην ἐπὶ τοὺς ἄρχοντας, εἰρήνην καὶ ὑγίειαν αὐτῷ.
Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will be on his shoulders. He is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.
The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible; Martin Abegg Jr., Peter Flint & Eugene Ulrich.
It is reasonable to ask if the Masorete scholars who compiled the Tanakh purposely altered the text to remove the reference to the Son being Mighty God and Everlasting Father/Father of the age to come. That verse is not saying however that the Son is God the Father. The Son is God, but he is not the Father.
The title 'Everlasting Father or Father of the age to come' seems to be an idiom describing the Messiah's relationship to time. It is not describing his relationship to the other persons of the Trinity. The Messiah - Jesus, as God is just as eternal as the Father and the Holy Spirit.
On the other hand, perhaps the Masoretes copied a Hebrew text that is no longer extant. At any rate, the Hebrew Tanakh/Masoretic text at Isaiah 9:6 [9:5] is different from the much earlier Hebrew text of the Dead Sea Scrolls as well as different from the earlier Septuagint's Greek translation of the Hebrew text.
Last edited by Michael Way; 06-09-2019 at 02:31 PM..
As for My people, their rulers are mockers, and women govern(or rule) them; O My people! Your leaders lead you astray, and the way of your paths they have destroyed.
Septuagint Brenton Translation
12 O my people, your exactors strip you, and extortioners rule over you: O my people, they that pronounce you blessed lead you astray, and pervert the path of your feet.
In Isaiah 9:6 both the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls agree with each other against the Masorectic text/Tanakh.
Tanakh:
Isaiah 9:6 [9:5 in the Tanakh] For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
Notice that in the Tanakh, it is not the child who called the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, but is being called the prince of peace BY the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father.
However, in both the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls, (and again, both of these are much older than the Tanakh) it is the child who is called the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, and the prince of peace.
Septuagint
Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder, and his name is called the messenger of great counsel, < wonderful counsellor, mighty God, potentate, prince of peace, father of the age to come >*: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.
* This text is missing from the translation.
Here's the Greek text of Isaiah 9:6
ὅτι παιδίον ἐγενήθη ἡμῖν, υἱὸς καὶ ἐδόθη ἡμῖν, οὗ ἡ ἀρχὴ ἐγενήθη ἐπὶ τοῦ ὤμου αὐτοῦ, καὶ καλεῖται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελός, θαυμαστὸς σύμβουλος, Θεὸς ἰσχυρός (mighty God), ἐξουσιαστής, ἄρχων εἰρήνης (prince/ruler of peace), πατὴρ τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος· (Father of the age to come) ἐγὼ γὰρ ἄξω εἰρήνην ἐπὶ τοὺς ἄρχοντας, εἰρήνην καὶ ὑγίειαν αὐτῷ.
Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will be on his shoulders. He is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.
The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible; Martin Abegg Jr., Peter Flint & Eugene Ulrich.
It is reasonable to ask if the Masorete scholars who compiled the Tanakh purposely altered the text to remove the reference to the Son being Mighty God and Everlasting Father/Father of the age to come. That verse is not saying however that the Son is God the Father. The Son is God, but he is not the Father.
The title 'Everlasting Father or Father of the age to come' seems to be an idiom describing the Messiah's relationship to time. It is not describing his relationship to the other persons of the Trinity. The Messiah - Jesus, as God is just as eternal as the Father and the Holy Spirit.
On the other hand, perhaps the Masoretes copied a Hebrew text that is no longer extant. At any rate, the Hebrew Tanakh/Masoretic text at Isaiah 9:6 [9:5] is different from the much earlier Hebrew text of the Dead Sea Scrolls as well as different from the earlier Septuagint's Greek translation of the Hebrew text.
The Septuagint prophets were not done with G-d’s hand in it, and therefore, idolatrous...
In Isaiah 9:6 both the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls agree with each other against the Masorectic text/Tanakh.
Tanakh:
Isaiah 9:6 [9:5 in the Tanakh] For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
Notice that in the Tanakh, it is not the child who called the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, but is being called the prince of peace BY the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father.
However, in both the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls, (and again, both of these are much older than the Tanakh) it is the child who is called the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, and the prince of peace.
Septuagint
Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder, and his name is called the messenger of great counsel, < wonderful counsellor, mighty God, potentate, prince of peace, father of the age to come >*: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.
* This text is missing from the translation.
Here's the Greek text of Isaiah 9:6
ὅτι παιδίον ἐγενήθη ἡμῖν, υἱὸς καὶ ἐδόθη ἡμῖν, οὗ ἡ ἀρχὴ ἐγενήθη ἐπὶ τοῦ ὤμου αὐτοῦ, καὶ καλεῖται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελός, θαυμαστὸς σύμβουλος, Θεὸς ἰσχυρός (mighty God), ἐξουσιαστής, ἄρχων εἰρήνης (prince/ruler of peace), πατὴρ τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος· (Father of the age to come) ἐγὼ γὰρ ἄξω εἰρήνην ἐπὶ τοὺς ἄρχοντας, εἰρήνην καὶ ὑγίειαν αὐτῷ.
Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will be on his shoulders. He is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.
The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible; Martin Abegg Jr., Peter Flint & Eugene Ulrich.
It is reasonable to ask if the Masorete scholars who compiled the Tanakh purposely altered the text to remove the reference to the Son being Mighty God and Everlasting Father/Father of the age to come. That verse is not saying however that the Son is God the Father. The Son is God, but he is not the Father.
The title 'Everlasting Father or Father of the age to come' seems to be an idiom describing the Messiah's relationship to time. It is not describing his relationship to the other persons of the Trinity. The Messiah - Jesus, as God is just as eternal as the Father and the Holy Spirit.
On the other hand, perhaps the Masoretes copied a Hebrew text that is no longer extant. At any rate, the Hebrew Tanakh/Masoretic text at Isaiah 9:6 [9:5] is different from the much earlier Hebrew text of the Dead Sea Scrolls as well as different from the earlier Septuagint's Greek translation of the Hebrew text.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
The Septuagint prophets were not done with G-d’s hand in it, and therefore, idolatrous...
Are you going to make the same accusation about the Hebrew text of the Dead Sea Scrolls? The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint are in agreement with each other at Isaiah 9:6, and they disagree with the Tanakh.
Are you going to make the same accusation about the Hebrew text of the Dead Sea Scrolls? The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint are in agreement with each other at Isaiah 9:6, and they disagree with the Tanakh.
On what basis? We're talking about two different Hebrew texts. While in many places the two are identical, in many other places the two texts are quite different. Now where the two texts vary, which is the correct text. . . the Tanakh/Masoretic text, or the much older Dead Sea Scrolls text? Personal preference doesn't determine which of the two are correct.
''While some of the Qumran Biblical manuscripts are nearly identical to the Masoretic, or traditional, Hebrew text of the Old Testament, some manuscripts, especially the books of Exodus and Samuel, found in Cave Four, exhibit dramatic differences in both language and content.''
''About 35% of the DSS biblical manuscripts belong to the Masoretic tradition, 5% to the Septuagint family, and 5% to the Samaritan, with the remainder unaligned. The non-aligned manuscripts fall into two categories, those inconsistent in agreeing with the other known types, and those that diverge significantly from all other known readings.''
Just as with the New Testament documents there were differences/variants in the Hebrew texts. The Tanakh/ Masoretic text is NOT the original Hebrew text. It is a text that was copied and compiled by the Masoretes between the 7th and 10th centuries AD.
Last edited by Michael Way; 06-09-2019 at 04:52 PM..
Reason: Replaced a period with a question mark.
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