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I'm sure that's true. But on this particular forum, many Christians agree with you, and have engaged in the discussion (and rebuke of ET) extensively. It's quite the long-running feud, which anyone who's spent much time here knows. That's why I at this...
Well, it will be refreshing to see this is the case.
Yes God could have, but then satan would have twisted it into oblivion, like he tries with his 99% of all religion that he runs. But the way God did it--satan was kept in spiritual darkness--Even Gods own angels are desiring to peer into truths- 1Peter 1:12)
it wouldn't be until these last days when truths are revealed through Jesus' real teachers( Daniel12:4)-- Jesus' one true religion stopped for the most part after the apostles were murdered, and then the followers were hunted down and thrown to hungry wild animals as a public display( at best it went underground) it did not come back to the earth until these last days--the great apostasy rose up in between) 2Thess 2:3) and became a divided house( Mark 3:24-26)( 33,000 trinity religions)that will NOT stand. this was satans attempt to put it into oblivion, and he did, but it wasn't any part of God or Jesus, so he failed really except to those in darkness who listen to a divided house.
Jesus' one single true religion accomplishes this-1Cor 1:10-- unity of thought-no division.
Are you at all skeptical of the bible, the blood fest of the OT, the lack of clarity and the blatant deception of the church?
First we had the liar on the fundie side telling us that "God is Love" isn't in the Bible and now we have a liar on the universalist side telling us that "eternal torment" isn't in the Bible. This is an excellent demonstration of the problem with hard headed ideologues. They indulge in willful ignorance and refuse to see the evidence which is there for everyone to find.
Eternal torment most certainly IS in the Bible, found in Matthew 25:46.
And there is "eternal fire" in Matthew 18:18, with Matthew 25:41 linking this with eternal torment above.
It most certainly is scriptural and therefore it is reasonable for Christians to believe.
Nonsense, but we have been down this road.
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The question which neither of these groups will apply themselves to is how these two facts can be reconciled.
1. God is love.
2. There is eternal torment.
Both of these are in the Bible and the can be reconciled if you are willing to make the effort. And here is the key: stop looking to power as the solution to everything. This is easy for God to do because He has all the power He could ever want and thus knows very well that power doesn't do anything of real significance. But we humans from the moment of birth have pretty much done nothing but accumulate power -- the power to walk, the power to talk, the power to fight, and the power manipulate and deceive. Each gain tells us that power can get us what we want and so we seek for more. But God is telling us that this is a path that eventually goes nowhere.
God is omnipotent by nature but power is not what He chooses to be. He chooses love and freedom rather than power and control and that is why He created life. He created others who make their own choices and decide for themselves what they want to be. So by His own choice, He is not in control anymore. And that is why there is eternal torment, because this is what some people choose for themselves. Yes, it is precisely because God chose love rather than power that hell exists.
Those who lie to themselves concerning the facts are unteachable. Those who insist that everyone who disagrees with them must be regressive or flawed in some way are unteachable.
I defend both sides against the lies of either side. So you are one basically calling unteachable, anybody who will not agree with your position exactly. LOL You demonstrate that you are the one who fits this criterion.
I'm fairly new here and a recent convert to Atheist. Before becoming an Atheist, I struggled with the doctrine of ET. I discovered that ET was not biblical, yet, I'm shocked at how many pastors and Christians believe this doctrine to be biblical and even worse, reasonable. I cringe when I here Christians say that another human should burn in hell for eternity. I found the bible to clearly support annihilation.
My question is: Do you believe in ET and do you consider it just punishment? If so, have you really considered what that means?
In Revalation 19: 20
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And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Then fast forward 1000 years after mankinds final rebellion against God you have Revalation 20:10
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And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Eternal torment is biblical despite mans discovery that it somehow isn't.
I was being kind. What I really think of those who cannot admit ET is sadistic and repulsive would likely get me banned.
You remind me of all the other intolerant ideologue who say exactly the same thing about everyone who disagrees with their own twisted obsessions.
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Originally Posted by maat55
So, you cherry pick the bible to defend ET?
No. I refuse to cherry pick the Bible in order to ignore parts you don't want to hear.
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Originally Posted by maat55
Btw, the bible uses words like, destruction, perish, no more, death, burned up, ashes, etc. etc. when describing the fate of the unbelievers.
Destruction is not a word which is exclusively used for a end to existence and I have no doubt the other words are only used to describe the physical fate of unbelievers, but we are talking about the fate of people AFTER death.
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Originally Posted by maat55
My disbelief is based on the bible as a whole.
And your reading of the Bible is ruled by your beliefs and disbeliefs.
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Originally Posted by maat55
Btw, if you take the story of the rich man and Lazarus as literal, you are completely off base.
I don't take it literally. But this doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken seriously. And it doesn't change the fact this is the only description Jesus gives of the afterlife to go with his words of "eternal fire", "eternal torment" and "eternal life."
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Originally Posted by maat55
Torment period. Whether by fire, or tickling that lasts for trillions of years.
So, answer the question. Do you believe in and accept ET as just?
What has justice to do with it? When someone falls from a great height they go splat on the ground and die and their body remains dead forever and ever. Is that just? LOL It is life. Life requires rules. Without the rules there is no life -- there is only a dreamworld with all the imitation dream people you make up to fill such a world.
The freedom we have in life means that we can no only make trivial choices about our favorite color and momentous decisions about what to do with our life, but also whether to embrace the challenge of doing something good with our life or to make the perverse choice for evil and death. And people do make such choices creating a living hell for people in various places on the earth. I don't imagine they will do anything differently after death.
So is it justice that people get what they insist on having? Yes, I think it is.
I defend both sides against the lies of either side. So you are one basically calling unteachable, anybody who will not agree with your position exactly. LOL You demonstrate that you are the one who fits this criterion.
You should try looking in the mirror, instead of making a lame attempt to Lord it over others.
You should try looking in the mirror, instead of making a lame attempt to Lord it over others.
You are crazy! Pointing out when either side oversteps the line is not any kind of attempt to lord it over others.
For intolerant ideologues like you, "teachable" apparently means letting you dictate whatever lies, irrational dogmas and sick fetishes you decide they should believe.
Eternal torment is biblical despite mans discovery that it somehow isn't.
The words endless torment (adialeipton timorion), eternal imprisonment (aidios eirgmos) and eternal punishment (aidios kalasin) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction. Neither, will you find the term aidios timorion or eternal torment. Therefore, whoever says that there is an eternal (aidios) time set for punishment (kalasin) or torment beyond this life is sadly mistaken. It's a limited duration of aionion (αἰώνιον - a period of time, as in an age) kalasin (Κόλασιν - punishment, chastisement or correction) which is in view; but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable. If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used. But not even Jesus used the word for eternal in conjunction with any kind of punishment or correction.
You are crazy! Pointing out when either side oversteps the line is not any kind of attempt to lord it over others.
For intolerant ideologues like you, "teachable" apparently means letting you dictate whatever lies, irrational dogmas and sick fetishes you decide they should believe.
You really need a new dictionary.
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